Blakes7 March 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

96 participants
1067 discussions

Slash - Well Done FM & BR.
by seven＠gaudaprime.com 10 Mar '01

10 Mar '01

After the truce Fiona wrote Having hashed out the relative status of B/A slash with regard to canon, onscreen evidence, dramatic convention, visual grammar and entertainment value, shall we go for dinner? <offers arm -- in a totally nonsexual way, of course :)> Betty responded [LOL] You like Chinese? :) David I just wanted to say: "Well said and well done" to you both. DC

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Re: [B7L] Modes of engagement/slash
by Harriet Monkhouse 10 Mar '01

10 Mar '01

Tavia wrote: >Personally, I have a great deal more emotional > investment in 'my' Avon's musical taste than >his taste in sexual partners. I can believe him with > (in alphabetical order) Blake, Cally, Jenna, Tarrant, > Servalan, Vila, or for that matter, xyz sexworker at >abc space-port, or being 100% faithful to Anna; >but in all cases he likes Bach. Avon doesn't like music at all. At least, Julius Caesar thought he didn't. Re use of "my": >Everyone I've ever heard use it does it to distinguish >their personal character, the one they write about or >draw, from the series (canonical) version. I'll third Mistral and Tavia on this one, though. Harriere

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Japan..
by Nathan Hook 10 Mar '01

10 Mar '01

Fiona described Japan as a poor example of low crime and liberal attitudes to porn and violence in the cartoons there. Having had a few friends over in Japan including my old boss on a rather long business trip I would have to agree about it being a poor example. My old boss found circumstances rather unusual over there and was quite critical of Japanese society. Despite it's low crime tag, he said crime was quite rife over there. It's just not reported and often is white collar crime or japanese mafia type stuff. Women appear to be less respected than their male counterparts. My boss was offered a woman for the night as a "gift" of the company he visited, whether she was an employee or a prostitute on the books was hard to say.(that would still make her an employee I spose.) Nevertheless it was a bit of a shock compared to the usual pleasantries exchanged in a business deal. By the same token, pack rape is quite common and I understand women over there often have great difficulty getting sex attacks investigated by the police. In a documnetary I saw on Japanese society similar things with regards to women being sexually assaulted frequently, on packed tokyo commuter trains. You often hear about the order of the japanese, but my boss found it amusing to see nuclear powerplants or other industrial plants in the middle of residential areas. there was no organised town planning. I was tempted to go and teach english there...but the UK may be the go yet. No offence to Japanese people in general of course. So, the point is, often the tags are not deserved. My pad, NZ is portrayed as low crime and a clean and green place. Yet, we have some of the worlds greatest methane ouputs, due to all the farm animals and the lush green grass. except at the moment, there's a drought in the country, it's beginning to look like australia. Crime is certainly here, and tourists often get attacked unfortunately by psychopathic predators who seem to be prevalent here. I'm in firm belief that a lot of trouble has been added to the mix as a result of deinstitutionalisation. Like the UK and the USA before them, somebody thought it would be a good idea to release psychiatric patients into the community, 'cause it wasn't nice to keep them locked up. So now, if the patients aren't being preyed on themselves by oportunists who take advantage of the vulnerable ones, the seriously unstable ones are a danger to the public. Only recently a guy who chopped off his girlfriends head and stuck it in the clothes dryer in a plastic bag was given a weekend pass to see his mother. How nice. Only he went and lay on the tracks at the local railway station, unfortunately/fortunately he didn't get killed. Naturally the police were impressed because it was only 18mnths since his arrest and a psychiatrist said he was showing no signs of anti-social behaviour and was perfectly okay to be out...or words to that effect. I wonder what methods the federation would have used to "treat" psychiatric illness? to bring it back to a B7 applicable lyst topic. Nathan. A 'strange coincidence', to use a phrase/ By which such things are settled nowadays. Byron. ------------------------------------------------------------ Free, BeOS-friendly email accounts: http://BeMail.org/ Peep! .:. http://twinfusion.com/comic/peep/ .:. An Epic Webcomic

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Re: [B7L] impressionable kiddies and mixed zines
by Tavia 10 Mar '01

10 Mar '01

Neil: >But a minority does not become irrelevant simply for being tiny. There are >children in fandom, and that must be taken into account. ... >Since there are children in fandom, we ought to assume that some of them >might well read fan fiction. If we assume that, we have to acknowledge that >there are zines out there that maybe they shouldn't read. I knew someone would say this. In the case of children intro'd to the show by parentfen (hard to think how else they'd come across it really these days), I assume the parentfen have enough fannish knowledge to separate their kids from material they consider unsuitable. >I suppose it might, but my (admittedly limited) experience of young children >suggests that they're happy to lap up any amount of violence. This might or might not be the case, and might depend on age, character, gender et al. (I recall being horrified/terrified by violence in Dr Who as a kid, and also grimly recall reading Solzhenitzyn's description of torture and interrogation in 'The Gulag Archipelago' aged about 10 -- a prime case of the 'don't censor' principle: the only reason I read it is that my parents forbade me to). The question is, however, is it doing them any harm? >The real problem with 'gen' >is that it has come to mean anything that isn't 'adult', but that leaves a >lot of things that still qualify as gen but are not necessarily suitable for >younger readers. Violence, possibly, or strong language. I disagree. One problem with some genzines is that they often feel so sanitised (to me) that I can only read them in very small chunks. (Those produced by Neil Faulkner being honourable exceptions.) >This problem is not terribly applicable to fanfic because >extreme violence and especially strong language are pretty rare. The only >B7 story I know to feature the word 'cunt' is one of mine, though I presume >there are others. Perhaps I'm the only proponent of the 'Blake uses "fuck" every second word' school of dialogue, then. But then I can't even type the c word, so perhaps you're right. Tavia

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Re: Blake/Jenna
by Betty Ragan 10 Mar '01

10 Mar '01

Responding to me, Fiona wrote: > > Er, I don't regard that as accepted. I mean, I think it's a perfectly > > reasonable interpretation, but I don't think it's clear enough that I'd > > regard it as canonical. (Given, of course, my "canon is only what's on > > the screen" POV.) > > But (not to crack the wind of the poor phrase, running it thus), it *is* > onscreen. The *look* is onscreen. The cruisy or non-cruisy nature of it is in the eye of the beholder. (That's so much of the problem, isn't it? *Nouns* appear on-screen, but *adjectives*, well...) > > says "Is that all? What shall I do with the other hand?," a > > semi-favorite line of mine.) > > (which, incidentally, is a common English expression) It's the *way* he says it. :) > > Avon's reaction, admittedly, is very cold > > and aloof, but he's very snarky with Blake throughout that whole episode > > (more than usual, I mean). > > Snark content seems about per usual to me :). That line doesn't strike me as > any worse than the "Have you considered amputation?" one... Oh, he does *far* snarkier things in the episode than deliver that line. That childish "I've figured it all out but I'm not going to tell you" thing, for instance. :) > > I suspect they'd had a between-episodes tiff > > and he wasn't remotely ready to make up. ;) > > Aha! Supposition! Offside! Offside! :) Damn! I was hoping you wouldn't notice. :) To be perfectly honest, though, I find myself getting worn out with keeping up the analytical approach. I'm tempted to go off and start a food thread or something. :) > And as for making it up, when do those two *ever* make up? They do seem to > spend Season 1 and 2 continually at each others' throats... Hey, all I said was that he wasn't remotely ready to make up *then*, not that he ever was afterwards, either. :) > Now, in the "Do I have a choice?" bit, Jenna calls out "Activate!" and we > hear the buzz. The impact occurs and Blake and Avon hold onto each other for > support. *Jenna does not say "deactivate," which implies that there is still > a danger of being hit by other plasma bolts.* Oooh, good one! Must go and watch again to verify. Oh, the sacrifice! :) -- Betty Ragan ** bragan(a)nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov

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Does Avon love Anna?
by Caveatemptor1＠aol.com 10 Mar '01

10 Mar '01

<, Mistral wrote: << Mind you, in light of recent discussions I should probably point out that I only participate in the above sort of exercise because I personally find it entertaining, and you're perfectly entitled to think what you like. >> DITTO... << Mistral wrote: << For example, Dayna's comment, "You killed someone he loved." That she _said_ it is canon; that we take it as evidence that Avon loved Anna requires that we _assume_ (i.e. interpret) that (1) she was being honest, and (2) that she knew what she was talking about. >> I believe Avon loved Anna simply because the whole episode is an example of "easy" writing. Therefore, I take everything in it at face value. I believe it because Dayna said it. I agree with the person who said it's the writer's way of letting the audience know what's going on. (I apologize for not remembering who said this.) There's also the fact that I simply prefer to believe that Avon did actually love Anna. :) The reason I can accept Dayna's word on it is that at some time (before the first scene of RoD) Avon must have presented his intensions to the crew. We don't know what he said to them (it's doubtful he actually said, "I loved her and must avenge her."). But whatever he said it was enough to convince them to go along with him. And something in the way he presented it told Dayna he was in love with this woman. The question I find difficult to answer is...did Anna love Avon? << Cheryl wrote: << The fact that a man who values his life so much that he would willingly sacrifice a longtime crewmate in order to save his own, yet who acknowledges that he would have willingly given up his life for Anna, confirms, that he places the life of Anna above his own. >> I agree that Avon's statement to Grant confirms his love for Anna. This was the first time we learned any details about Avon's attempted embezzlement and I remember being fascinated that there was a love interest involved. I also recall latching onto the the loss of Anna as one possible explanation for Avon's aloofness. << Cheryl wrote; << To this I would respond, that it was never stated that Avon would 'willingly' give up his life for Blake. >> Hmmm. If Blake were captured by Federation torturers and Avon learned he could save Blake by presenting himself for death by torture, would he do it? I don't think so. I think Avon would try very hard to rescue Blake, but I don't believe he would surrender himself to certain death. <, Cheryl wrote: << Avon was not aware of a trap (on Terminal) only aware of the possibility >> I've always believed Avon was almost certain it was a trap. << and he obviously considered Blake important enough(for whatever reasons)to go there in the hopes of finding him. >> It's my personal belief that by this time Avon had discovered that the old saying, 'be careful what you wish for -- you may get," was all too true. << Cheryl wrote; << Speaking from the 'Avon loves Anna' camp, I would like to strengthen my previous points with an observation re: Avon and his on screen reaction to the deaths of both Anna and Blake. >> The one similarity that most struck me is that in both cases Avon emotionally shutdown. Courtney

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Plea to Leah and Shane
by Caveatemptor1＠aol.com 10 Mar '01

10 Mar '01

<< Shane wrote: << Why single us out? Why not Kingpin and Leah, or Neil and Leah... funny how that name keeps cropping up, isn't it? >> Probably because Leah is trying to defend a position that doesn't need defending. Slash discussions on lysator have NEVER been productive. Haven't we learned that yet? Leah, why are you wasting your time. Shane, Kingpin, et al are deliberately being obtuse. It isn't worth the effort. Lately the lyst is being driven by a few individuals who obviously enjoy confrontation, hostility, name-calling, and personal attacks. They certainly aren't interested in B7 discussion since there isn't any. I've already had to killfile Wendy, Fiona, Kingpin, Shane, Neil and a few others. But this is getting rediculous. I'm sick of it. May I suggest the above named individuals don't bother sending any witty (intelligent/intellectual) rejoinders. I won't be here to appreciate them. Courtney

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Re: Modes of engagement/slash
by Betty Ragan 10 Mar '01

10 Mar '01

Fiona wrote: > Me too. But what you also get is: > [likewise, hypothetical example only]: > > Person A: I think Blake is gay. > Person B: Why do you think that? > Person A: [cites a whole list of scenes]. > Person B: Oh but... [goes through the same list of scenes, pointing out > the dubiousness of each as evidence] > Person A: Oh, but I'm not trying to make *you* believe it! > > Which as I said is a hypothetical example-- but that's why I sometimes > mutter about moving goalposts. Yeah, this is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of when I said (in one of my later posts) that it can look to an "approach #1" type that an "approach #2" type is engaging in an analytical "approach #1"-type discussion and then trying to back out of it. When what person A might *think* she's doing is simply explaining where she got her own interpretion from. Like I said, cross purposes. (This may vary for specific values of Person A and Person B, of course. :)) > <snipping for length reasons. Hope you don't mind. If you do, I'll requote > it back in the next post in full... :)> No prob. > OK, calming down a bit now myself, too, and I think you're right-- some of > the people on this thread *have* been arguing at cross purposes. So what it > all boils down to is: there's canon and there's exercises in imagination > which refer to the canon without particularly feeling required to stick to > it? Well, that and there are different notions of what "sticking to canon" means. For many, that just means not contradicting canon in a blatant and un-work-around-able way. > To make sure I've understood, I'll refer back to the The Web example. So > person B would say "yep, Blake and Avon at loggerheads again," and > person A would say "but if you imagine they were lovers, then > *hmmm*..." More or less, I think. Person A might even put it more strongly, something like "Well, in my version of B7, they are lovers, so given that what's really going on here must be..." Etc., etc. That "in my version" is crucial, though, because it recognizes that that's not a take on things that is inevitably, logically, deducable from canon, but rather one that's a product of the unique interaction between viewer and canon. > If I've got it right (and I hope I have), then like I said to Steve, fair > enough :). Yeah, I think there's really a lot less actual *disagreement* here than would first appear, and that the conflict really boils down to a simple difference in approach. But then, I think that's true for 99% of intellectual conflicts, really... > (do you know, I can now quote whole swatches of 'Hostage' ? And it's YOUR > fault :)...). :) > But as I said before, that's a side issue > from trying to map one of those hypothetical points back onto the canon... > which I think we've argued into the ground :). Yeah. :) -- Betty Ragan ** bragan(a)nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov

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Freedom City
by Tiger M 10 Mar '01

10 Mar '01

Anyone who is over 18 and legally an adult in the area where they live is welcome to join Freedom City (and yes, I do ask for age statements to protect myself legally). I want to stress, however, that it *is* a slash-friendly and erotica-friendly list. Not everyone there is a slash fan, but members are expected to be tolerant. FC's predecessor, Space City, was created as a place where those who like slash can discuss it in peace without distressing those who do not. In accordance with that, trolling and flaming are prohibited there. More information, including FC's FAQ, can be found at http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7/Fanclubs/MailNews.html Just click on Freedom City. If you're interested in joining, please read the FAQ first. Judith, I hope you don't mind my directing people who are interested to your page. Thanks. :-) Tiger M __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Re: [B7L] Modes of engagement/slash
by Ellynne G. 10 Mar '01

10 Mar '01

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:18:06 -0000 Tavia <tavia(a)btinternet.com> writes: > Personally, I have a great deal more emotional investment in 'my' > Avon's > musical taste than his taste in sexual partners. I can believe him > with (in > alphabetical order) Blake, Cally, Jenna, Tarrant, Servalan, Vila, or > for > that matter, xyz sexworker at abc space-port, or being 100% faithful > to > Anna; but in all cases he likes Bach. At first, I couldn't quite see this. Then it hit. Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, a ruthless ghost is willing to destroy Earth and its entire 4 billion years of history to bring his dead ship and crew mates back to life (his fault they're dead). He and his people were also the source of all Bach music. So, that's what Avon did after GP. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Blakes7 March 2001