Fiona wrote >>> ... I've actually yet to see evidence that Jenna, Vila, Soolin or Avon were conditioned before the series began ...
David >> Vila tells us his past when he introduces himself (snipped it just won't stay adjusted)
Fiona > OK, but then (leaving aside that Vila seems here to be talking about theft not homosexuality) I refer you back to my original point about resistance to conditioning.
David Vila is talking about theft. There is no seeming about it.
I see the distinction in your original point: Having been conditioned is different than having undergone conditioning. Since Vila's conditioning did not take, he was not conditioned. I see the distinction.
Fiona > Furthermore, if Vila says, as he did in your quotation, that his conditioning hasn't taken, this further suggests that if Vila is gay and his conditioning was (partially or wholly) aimed at instilling self-loathing/homophobia, he has absolutely no reason not to express his homosexuality, and every reason to do so.
David I am not arguing for or against the sexual preference of Vila. I think he was not gay. I am simply arguing in favout of the possibility of conditioning, which I admit didn't take in Vila's case. There is something about Vila.
David >> Have you considered the possibility that the vision Zen took from Jenna's mind in the early stages of salvaging the Liberator may have been auto-biographical? It occurs to me that it is so, but it is possible for Jenna to have been present at her mother's interrogation.
Fiona > But this doesn't suggest that Jenna was conditioned. Furthermore, we see Jenna's mother being interrogated -- not being conditioned (as we have, by this point, already seen Blake being conditioned, we know what it looks like).
David Perhaps Jenna was a little girl at the time of her mother's interrogation and therefore the troopers did not bother to remove Jenna from the interrogation. Or there may be other reasons why the troopers would have permitted Jenna to see the interrogation.
David >> quotes from Duel Jenna: Oh, I wasn't clever enough, we none of us were. The Federation has beaten us all at least once.
David >> Jenna admits to having been defeated, which I take to mean captured, interrogated and then conditioned, but not necessarily to the extent that Blake and Vila were.
Fiona > But that, again, is what Neil would call "subcanon." Jenna doesn't say "The Federation has *conditioned* us all at least once."
David Since I have no more evidence nor argument to present with regard to Jenna's alleged conditioning, said conditioning is subcanonical, yes.
SubCanonical Possibility: There possibly were degrees in conditioning.
David >> That Blake and Vila were. In the scene with Ro in Horizon, Blake stays awake but Jenna passes out. There is also the question of why she was not made mutoid, but whether that argues for or against conditioning I cannot say.
Fiona > And these prove exactly what with regard to the question of whether or not Jenna has been conditioned?
David These prove nothing. Very little can be proven to have occurred in Jenna's past. There is Tarvin, Largo, Avalon and one or two other things that we know about from the series, and that is all.
David >> As for Soolin, she, on the other hand, would not regard herself as having been defeated / conditioned, except perhaps by Dorian.
Fiona > Who, leaving aside the fact that that's a big IF, is not the Federation. And again, there's no evidence that I'm aware of that Soolin has even been captured by the Federation prior to her association with Avon, much less conditioned.
David No evidence at all. I agree with you on that.
Thank you for your reply, Fiona.
DC