Una said -
I don't think there's that much to wonder about on that score <g> 'Not at
all' I think!
What I was originally thinking of was the formalism, rather than the particular moral (or other) message conveyed by that formalism. However, because what everyone had to say on the other subject was so interesting, I didn't press the point.
I was thinking of the elegance and symmetry of the structure of B7, how situations are set up, and then inverted. Let me just take one, comparatively minor example, which is Jenna being invited to take the Liberator and run, at the start of her journey (Cygnus Alpha) and at the end of it (Star One), and refusing each time, with that refusal having a different meaning. If that was the only example it wouldn't exactly tip the scales, but we can uncover so many of a similar kind, in each character's arc and in the multiple arcs of the different stories and the joint story.
I think that people do impose elegance and symmetry on artifacts of all kinds, above and beyond the demands of practicality. One question is are the fans imposing the symmetry, or was part of that work done for them in advance? I would say the latter. But I enjoy the elegance in either case.
It's not just reflecting the age, I don't think, because you wouldn't
find it in
any other show of the time.
I can think of one or two. Where do you see this kind of presentation of
morality in contemporary shows? I think I find it everywhere because it's what I'm interested in.
I meant conveyance of morality through this particular metaphor, I think. Anyway, it doesn't really matter what I actually meant, and to be honest I don't remember.
A concept as broad as 'morality'? - yes, of course it's found elsewhere A particular moral theme? - It would be interesting to consider which shows were most similar to B7, then and now. I know one you'll mention. A convoluted structure intended to convey a subversive morality? - I would say pretty rare, but I'm prepared to be convinced.
Alison
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Alison wrote:
Una said -
I don't think there's that much to wonder about on that score <g>
'Not at
all' I think!
I was thinking of the elegance and symmetry of the structure of B7,
how
situations are set up, and then inverted. Let me just take one, comparatively minor example, which is Jenna being invited to take the Liberator and run, at the start of her journey (Cygnus Alpha) and at
the end
of it (Star One), and refusing each time, with that refusal having a different meaning. If that was the only example it wouldn't exactly
tip the
scales, but we can uncover so many of a similar kind, in each
character's
arc and in the multiple arcs of the different stories and the joint
story.
I never see this sort of thing. I didn't notice until people on this list said it that Blake's injured eye can mean 1. a loss of clear moral vision and 2. a blurring of the lines between him and Travis.
But then I also didn't notice - until someone pointed it out to me - that the Dr Who story 'Kinda' (in which someone in a paradise world eats an apple and then evil is introduced in the shape of a giant snake) was a metaphor for the Garden of Eden. It was quite clear when someone pointed it out, however. Maybe I was distracted by the snake looking crap. Evil is truly cunning.
I have a definite blind spot. I'm sure you could push any old propaganda on me and I'd just lap it up. Anyway, that's why I think this sort of thing is incredibly clever and I love reading it. So I'd like more examples of what you posted, and what Natasa posted when she kicked off this thread.
I think that people do impose elegance and symmetry on artifacts of
all
kinds, above and beyond the demands of practicality. One question is
are the
fans imposing the symmetry, or was part of that work done for them in advance? I would say the latter. But I enjoy the elegance in either
case.
I would also say the latter, since writers obviously think about this sort of thing when they write, even if they're writing quickly and within a strict format.
It's not just reflecting the age, I don't think, because you
wouldn't find it in
any other show of the time.
I can think of one or two. Where do you see this kind of presentation
of
morality in contemporary shows? I think I find it everywhere because
it's
what I'm interested in.
I meant conveyance of morality through this particular metaphor, I
think.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter what I actually meant, and to be
honest I
don't remember.
Sorry to come back at you on posts you made ages ago.
A concept as broad as 'morality'? - yes, of course it's found
elsewhere
Sorry to be vague; obviously, yes. I was just trying to get a bit closer to what you meant.
A particular moral theme? - It would be interesting to consider which
shows
were most similar to B7, then and now. I know one you'll mention.
For once, I was thinking of something other than 'Deep Space Nine', and was actually thinking of 'Callan' (been watching it a lot recently).
A convoluted structure intended to convey a subversive morality? - I
would
say pretty rare, but I'm prepared to be convinced.
There's certainly a lot of structure in the way that 'Callan' is shot. In episode after episode and scene after scene you get shots lined up using reflections in mirrors and multiple mirrors, and other reflecting surfaces. Given how cheap the show is and how few sets it's on, it's quite amazing what they manage to do. On reflection (ho ho), I'm not sure that this is quite what you're talking about either.
Una
Una wrote:
Alison wrote:
<snip>
I was thinking of the elegance and symmetry of the structure of B7,
how
situations are set up, and then inverted.
<snip>
I never see this sort of thing. I didn't notice until people on this list said it that Blake's injured eye can mean 1. a loss of clear moral vision and 2. a blurring of the lines between him and Travis.
<snip>
I have a definite blind spot. I'm sure you could push any old propaganda on me and I'd just lap it up. Anyway, that's why I think this sort of thing is incredibly clever and I love reading it. So I'd like more examples of what you posted, and what Natasa posted when she kicked off this thread.
<snip>
(sorry about all the snipping - hope it's clear what I'm answering)
One example of symmetry that I don't remember seeing mentioned is between the scene in "Time Squad" where Blake meets Cally and the scene in "Blake" where he meets Arlen.
In episode four ("Time Squad"), Blake sets up camp and waits for the rebels to turn up.
In the last episode ("Blake"), Blake sets up camp and waits for outlaws to turn up.
In both cases he ends up recruiting someone, but with somewhat different results, of course!
Whether or not this is deliberate (and as "Blake" was written by script editor Boucher, it could well be), I think it is neat: Blake is definately Blake, because he is using the same methods. In this, he is like Travis and his obsession with the same approach. Perhaps, just as Blake exploited Travis' predictability, the Federation was trying to exploit his?
Best wishes, James
At 02:00 PM 9/26/2001 +0100, Una McCormack wrote:
I never see this sort of thing. I didn't notice until people on this list said it that Blake's injured eye can mean 1. a loss of clear moral vision and 2. a blurring of the lines between him and Travis.
And to take a determinedly pragmatic view of things, I can imagine the thought process leading up to the injury actually went more like:
Hmmm. I want Blake to have been through hard times in the interim, so let's make his appearance show that. Make him all scruffy and dirty. How about some physical damage? Changes that wouldn't normally be covered by his clothes would be best. Face or hands...you see faces on screen more. Facial scar. Not just one of those creases on a cheek/forehead/chin, want something more serious... Well, can't damage his mouth - would make delivering dialog hard. Can't deform his nose -- too likely to simply end up looking funny, and probably would screw up the actor's voice. Cut off an ear? Naw, mostly hidden under the scruffy hairstyle. Gotta be an eye.
Alison said:
I was thinking of the elegance and symmetry of the structure of B7,
how
situations are set up, and then inverted.
Sort of like data mining using one's old scripts.
Una said:
I never see this sort of thing. I didn't notice until people on this list said it that Blake's injured eye can mean 1. a loss of clear moral vision and 2. a blurring of the lines between him and Travis.
Also, loss or trauma to the eye is a very common fear (and so is damage to the appearance) so it's a short-cut way of getting viewers to identify with Blake having suffered.
From: Una McCormack una@qresearch.org.uk
But then I also didn't notice - until someone pointed it out to me - that the Dr Who story 'Kinda' (in which someone in a paradise world eats an apple and then evil is introduced in the shape of a giant snake) was a metaphor for the Garden of Eden. It was quite clear when someone pointed it out, however.
And a Who fan I used to know was unaware - until I pointed it out to him - that 'Kinder' is German for 'children'. Which may or may not have been deliberate on the part of the author, though I suspect it was, given that most people have some idea what 'kindergarten' means. But then maybe Kinda means something even more relevant in some other language with which I'm completely unacquainted.
Authors have to tread a fine line. They don't want to ram their points home with all the subtlety of the USS New Jersey (unless they write for Star Trek, or their name is Spielberg), but at the same time they don't (or hopefully don't) want to be so obscure that only a handful of cleverdick smartarses actually twig.
Neil