Lisa wrote:

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My penguins don't read, they just eat slash.

I've got a cat who does that.

Yes, he's a fifth columnist working for me.

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Ahem, false analogy there. Bit of a difference between political fanfic and bad food.

Ah, but that's the point -- I didn't say anything about *bad* food,

I've been racking my brains to think of a context in which eating slugs is considered good, and drawing a blank. I know about the snails, I've just never heard it for slugs. Anyway, just because someone likes something doesn't mean it's good for them.

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I'm saying that people should know that slash is only a small part of a vast amount of fanfic of varying quality.

Er, I think most people are well aware of that already. It's not exactly a secret.

But when I first came on to Lysator, I found that people were talking about slash, and the people who spoke up for gen were very much in the minority. This has since changed.

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I'm sure Neil Faulkner and the other gen writers out there are delighted to hear that their writing is boring, as compared to a PWP.

I said nothing comparing Neil's work to a PWP.

You did say you found the politics boring, and Neil is a very political writer.

(What is this thing

you've got about PWPs, anyhow? It's not as though they're somehow representative of slash, after all.)

I may not entirely like slash that's got a political or narrative point to it, but I'm willing to respect the writer's intention. But PWPs don't seem to have much merit beyond a wank, and not a good one at that. And they _are_ a lot more visible than the more thoughtful stuff, you must admit.

However, from what little I know of Neil, I

suspect he is a sufficiently mature writer to realize that no writer's work appeals to everyone, and hence there will be people who don't enjoy his, and that this is not necessarily a reflection on the quality of said writing. Yes, there probably *are* people who would like a PWP better than one of Neil's stories, and might be bored by the latter. They're allowed. There are probably also those for whom exactly the opposite is true. They're allowed. There are people who would enjoy neither Neil's work nor a PWP, and some who'd like both. Guess what? They're allowed.

(sigh). Of course they're allowed. that's not the point. The point is that something that's really not representative of B7 fanfic as a whole seems to be becoming the dominant sort, and that's not allowing much of a voice to the other sorts.

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That _is_ politics, actually.

Oh. Well, then I guess I don't understand what you mean by "politics".

Politics is human relations writ large.

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If you don't find sex interesting, why read slash?

Because I enjoy it. (Or enjoy certain, highly specific instances of it -- I'm very picky.) I don't need any other reason or justification. In my case, I'm reading it primarily for the emotional content; I can find the level and type that I want more easily in slash than in gen, usually. I tend to skim through a lot of the sex scenes because, as I said, I don't find sex in itself particularly interesting. Slash stories aren't just about sex, Shane. (Say that three times, quickly.)

No they aren't, but you're being sold a bit of a pig in a poke, aren't you? If the relationships in slash aren't realistic, then it seems to me it's a bad place to go looking for fiction about relationships.

An objection which I wholly understand and sympathize with. Making up stories about imaginary characters is called fiction; making up stories about real people is called libel. There's an intrinsic difference -- fictional characters can never know, or be hurt or embarrassed by, anything we make up about them.

Well, we're agreed on something then.

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But if they're presenting two characters in a gay relationship, then they _are_ writing about my lifestyle. I'm a gay man in a gay relationship. Hence my concern.

But you're not Blake, or Avon, or Vila, or Tarrant.

No, but they're not gay.

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So we're agreed then. Slash of course being out of character for straight characters.

Well, sure. But I don't think I've seen much slash about straight characters.

I meant, the characters as portrayed in the show. Who are straight, if you check the archive.

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Um, sorry, but relationships between two characters _are_ their lifestyle.

*Their* lifestyle. (I just cringe using that word; my gay friends hate it, and pounce on any instance of it. Fortunately, I don't think they're reading the list.) It's not some kind of sweeping comment on "gay lifestyles". Or on yours.

If you're not happy with the word "lifestyle" pick your own word, but what I said still stands. A lot of slash I've seen has nothing to do with gay lifestyles at all, just with titillation.

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But some sorts of fanfic fit the canon better than others.

Sure. So? There is no rule that fanfic must fit the canon, loosely, closely, or at all. If it directly contradicts canon -- canon being what we actually saw and heard on screen, not an individual viewer's interpretation thereof -- then it's an AU. That's fine; there's a big market for AUs. And any fanfic gets filtered through the reader's own perception of the show, so there will never be full agreement on how well an individual story agrees with canon. Nor do I see any reason why there should be.

As I said before, I have no problem with fantasy.

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And if there's no worth in a story beyond a quick wank, what's the point?

Maybe a quick wank *is* the point in some cases? But why would you assume that there's no other worth in the story? There's a broad, broad field between a "quick wank" and a story with a "serious message". And there's plenty of room for both, and all the stuff in between.

Yes, true, but we're not talking about the deeper stuff. The stuff that's just for a wank though, I mean I sometimes wonder why not just save the effort and rent a porn video.

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It's 1984 all over again-- use porn to distract the people from the real issues and stifle discussion.

Many of the most intriguing and in-depth discussions I've ever seen in fandom have been on slash lists, prompted by slash stories. If the purpose of slash stories is to "stifle discussion", all I can say is that they're failing miserably.

Then perhaps I'm just being prejudiced, but here on the lyst, it's ironically been the conservative religious people who have been showing the most tolerance, and two slash fans who have been running around calling people sick. As I said, I've grown to respect many of the slash writers and readers on this lyst-- but I have to admit that slash fandom's extreme wing strikes me as nastier than gen fandom's extreme wing.

But in general, their primary purpose is *entertainment*. Entertainment doesn't have to have a message. Sometimes it's just fun for fun's sake.

True, but I'm voicing my opinion here, and my axe is being ground against other aspects of slash, and particularly the manufacture of explicit images without permission.

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Nobody brought up right or wrong in fanfic, slash or otherwise, prior to this.

Then what's the problem? If you don't like it, don't read it.

It's not just a matter of reading and writing it. Most anti-slash people don't read it, but we are aware of it and affected by it. You don't, for instance, have to read slash to have an opinion on the debate over whether or not slash is canon; at Redemption you could avoid the Slash panel but couldn't be unaware that it was going on. Like Alison said, you don't have to watch Westerns to know that the portrayal of Native Americans is not going to fit the U.N. anti-racism guidelines.

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If something offends you, you have a choice. Either passively sit around hoping it'll go away, or stand up and make your opinions heard. I know which I'll pick.

OK, you've done that, at least to some extent. (I'm still not sure what it is you want to happen here.)

I just want to raise people's awareness of the issues.

But I submit that there is a wide world of difference between not liking what someone else finds entertaining, and being oppressed and deprived of your rights. The former is simply a difference of opinion; you're not being harmed because someone else enjoys something you don't.

When was that ever at issue?

Shane

"Resist the host or your oneness will be absorbed" --Zil

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