On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 08:38:14 +1100 Kathryn Andersen kat_lists@katspace.com writes:

The difficulty with this, and indeed with trying to create any futuristic language use (such as Kai was complaining of the lack of in B7) is that most native English-speakers are completely unaware of (a) the non-translatability of puns and (b) the high level of idioms we use in our everyday speech. Idioms don't translate either.

If you'll pardon the idiom, been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

It's not just idioms. I've spent my time going nuts trying to explain things that were littered with cultural expectations (try explaining the phrase "Oh, grow up," to someone whose culture doesn't necessarily combine independence [in some of the senses we use it] with maturity). And let's not even talk about accidentally using what seems like a simple, connect the dots metaphore that, it turns out, _isn't_ even where background (but not language) are fairly similar. Or explaining _connotations_ (think about it, they may mean the same thing, but would you give a pirate a ship called "The Revenge" or the "Tit-For-Tat"?

Although I have seen some writers who were clever with it. I remember a short story where the evil colonial power types kept getting eaten by a local monster because they refused to learn the local language and the saftey precautions didn't translate clearly.

Actually, in B7, the thing that bugged me about the language use was not the slang that the Space Rats used -- I thought that was rather good -- but the jokes that Vila told in "Ultraworld". Where to space-pilots park their ships? By parking meteors.

That jarred, because "parking meters" is such a late-20th-century concept that I find it hard to believe that a culture such as 28th-century Federated Earth is going to *have* such things as parking meters; we don't even know if private individuals are allowed to own their own vehicles, necessarily, and if they didn't then the concept of parking meters would be nonsensical. Of if everyone used air-cars, then maybe the concept of "parking" isn't the same. Do you see what I mean?

Even authors I love - like Bujold - do this. Russian's supposed to be the main language, with some French, Greek, and English - but no one seems to speak it. For example, the ruling counts, we're told, got their titles from a degeneration of 'accountants.'

Of course, one thing that I don't think anyone writing SF is very likely to do is write a story in which the *meanings* of well-known words have changed (or at least, the most common, salient meaning has changed). Even though we've observed such a phenomenon in our own lifetimes with the word "gay". Their readers would be too confused if, say, calling someone "blue" was a deadly insult, or if "typewriter" meant "an obsolete holo-projector" etc. Easier on the brain to use new words.

Unless they do it well or with a point. It's very important that Herbert's Fremen use 'water' and 'moisture' in place of 'blood.' Vinge, if I remember right, used 'blue' effectively as slang for police (and sometimes as a deadly insult among those who didn't like them).

But I should talk. Languages fascinate me, but I have a very limited talent with them (9 out of 10 I'd have given the Andromeda ep the wrong spelling). Oh, I try. I did come up with a basic theory of Trek vs B7 English, but it's mostly accounting for sound and word differences (which isn't terribly consistent of me). No, what I'm proud of is coming up with a long, drawn out theory on why Betazoid feminine names end with a.

Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.