Fiona quoted me thus:
and there is just as much evidence for
homosexual as there is for heterosexual relationships between the characters,
for some reason missing out the last few words of the sentence, which said: "that is very little with some hints". This was important, because what I am saying here was that there was little to base sexual interpretations on and so when writing about this subject we almost have a clean sheet.
Fiona said: "There is some evidence for heterosexual relationships/feelings/leanings between some of the principal characters on B7. There is no evidence of homosexual ones for these characters."
This is just a matter of interpretation, on what you see in their interactions. You later suggest Bounty and Hostage as showing examples of Blake's heterosexuality, but I don't see that. In Bounty he made no significant response to Tyce's obvious attraction to him and the kiss with Inga in Hostage can be interpreted in many ways - she's family after all.
Your point about the interviews with the characters and creators only shows that there was no subtext intended not that it didn't exist unintentionally. But again, there is so little evidence of sexual preferences that we really do have very much a clean sheet and so can go wherever we wish.
Fiona quoted me:
We know Avon is attracted to women, but that doesn't mean he isn't also attracted to men.
and responded: "Again, we see no evidence of this."
Again open to interpretation, but even if true it doesn't mean he doesn't feel such attractions. Many bisexual people hide one side of their sexuality.
Fiona said: "in "Rescue," we get the scene where Dorian gives Avon a decidedly "cruisy" look, after making a remark about his fondness for indulging any pleasure, to which Avon responds with "you really are insane, aren't you?" A perfect opportunity for Avon to show his colours-- and what he shows is quite the opposite."
It could also mean that Avon doesn't fancy Dorian. If a man is homosexual it doesn't mean he fancies all men in the same way that a heterosexual man doesn't fancy all women.
Fiona said about Gan, Tarrant and Vila: "All of whom actually make declarations at various times in the series supporting their heterosexuality."
Do they, when? They show at various times that they fancy women, but that cannot be said as a declaration of heterosexuality unless they also say they don't fancy men. Being attracted to women makes no statement either way about whether they are also attracted to men.
-- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption
--- Steve Rogerson steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk wrote: <Fiona quoted me thus:
and there is just as much evidence for
homosexual as there is for heterosexual relationships between the characters,
for some reason missing out the last few words of the sentence, which said: "that is very little with some hints">
OK, fair enough (minor accident of snippage, I'm afraid..). But it still doesn't alter my argument. It's true that there is little evidence for heterosexual relationships between the characters, but there's even less (and, I'd argue, none at all) for homosexual ones.
<Fiona said: "There is some evidence for heterosexual relationships/feelings/leanings between some of the principal characters on B7. There is no evidence of homosexual ones for these characters."
This is just a matter of interpretation, on what you see in their interactions.>
Actually, not entirely. It's also based on having read the character profiles and shooting scripts used in the series, and of having seen interviews with and spoken to various people involved in the series' creation. I believe in reading shows in context.
<You later suggest Bounty and Hostage as showing examples of Blake's heterosexuality, but I don't see that. In Bounty he made no significant response to Tyce's obvious attraction to him and the kiss with Inga in Hostage can be interpreted in many ways - she's family after all.>
I'm going to quote here, in case you missed it, the section in my post to Betty about Hostage and Bounty:
------- Not disagreeing about Tyce. Actually, I was thinking of the scene in which Jenna informs Blake that Tarkin (whom Blake knows to be her ex-lover) is dead, a death she herself brought about. Blake cups the side of her face with his hand, looks into her eyes and smiles at her, and says softly "Take us out of here, Jenna." She returns the smile. I think the subtext there is pretty darn clear :). Furthermore, Jenna is visibly jealous of Tyce, and Blake's reaction to this in the final scene shows that he is very much aware of Jenna's feelings.
<bit about the Inga/Blake kiss snipped>
Yes, but there's more than just the kiss there. When Inga first appears on screen, Jenna asks him who she is. Blake says "She meant a lot to me once..." They are cousins (a kin relationship which is distant enough to make a sexual relationship possible), and there doesn't seem to be any family rift; there is thus a suggestion of possible romantic involvement, or at least a "crush". At the end of the story he kisses her-- fairly chastely; he holds her hand while saying goodbye to Ashton; Jenna visibly bristles, and again Blake does not seem unaware of her reaction. -----
If you need more evidence, it can be provided.
Additionally, I'd raise the matter of "Duel." In this episode, to represent the "death of a friend" to Blake, the mysterious women pick Jenna. Not Avon. Surely, if his feelings for Avon were more affectionate than those for Jenna, he would have been the obvious choice? Even supernatural powers see Blake as straight...:).
<Your point about the interviews with the characters and creators only shows that there was no subtext intended not that it didn't exist unintentionally.>
It's worth pointing out that it's very difficult to insert a subtext that complex and subtle into a TV series of that length without an intentional effort on the part of the production team, which the interviews demonstrate did not exist. A subtext of that nature can't "exist unintentionally"; what you're actually talking about, it seems to me, is later reinterpretation of the show. Which is another thing entirely.
<But again, there is so little evidence of sexual preferences that we really do have very much a clean sheet and so can go wherever we wish.>
Again. There is no evidence of homosexual preference; there is evidence of heterosexual preference (slight in series 1 and 2; much stronger in 3 and 4). This suggests to me a direction marker to the viewer in the general direction of "straight."
<Fiona quoted me:
We know Avon is attracted to women, but that doesn't mean he isn't also attracted to men.
and responded: "Again, we see no evidence of this."
Again open to interpretation, but even if true it doesn't mean he doesn't feel such attractions. Many bisexual people hide one side of their sexuality.>
Talking from experience here :)? Anyway, my own experience of bisexual people suggests that they tend to express both sides of their sexuality, albeit at different times. Hence the term "bisexual."
<Fiona said: "in "Rescue," we get the scene where Dorian gives Avon a decidedly "cruisy" look, after making a remark about his fondness for indulging any pleasure, to which Avon responds with "you really are insane, aren't you?" A perfect opportunity for Avon to show his colours-- and what he shows is quite the opposite."
It could also mean that Avon doesn't fancy Dorian. If a man is homosexual it doesn't mean he fancies all men in the same way that a heterosexual man doesn't fancy all women.>
But what Avon says is not "sorry, don't fancy you," or "not tonight, darling." It's outright hostile. Similarly, while it's true that a heterosexual man doesn't fancy all women, I find, speaking as a woman with gay and straight male friends, that there is a decided difference between the way the gay ones and the straight ones, even if they don't fancy me, treat me.
<Fiona said about Gan, Tarrant and Vila: "All of whom actually make declarations at various times in the series supporting their heterosexuality."
Do they, when? >
Just off the top of my head:
Gan: "They killed my woman..." (Time Squad) Vila: "I like God's taste in servants..." (Cygnus Alpha, eyeing Kara); his reaction to the women in "Powerplay"; his relationship with Kerril (City...) Tarrant: his reactions towards Zeeona (Warlord), Piri (Assassin), Servalan (Sand)...
<They show at various times that they fancy women, but
that cannot be said as a declaration of heterosexuality unless they also say they don't fancy men. Being attracted to women makes no statement either way about whether they are also attracted to men.>
Now, really. Surely the absence of evidence is pretty significant? If you follow your statement through logically, then we would have to assume that every man, from Casanova through George W. Bush, who has shown affection for a woman, must also be assumed to fancy men unless they declare otherwise. Just because I like chocolate ice cream, it's a bit much to assume that I'll also like vanilla.
It's true that being attracted to women does not preclude attraction to men as well. However, if we only ever see a person being attracted to women, I think it can be taken as read which way their preferences lie.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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Fiona Moore said;
Additionally, I'd raise the matter of "Duel." In this episode, to represent the "death of a friend" to Blake, the mysterious women pick Jenna. Not Avon. Surely, if his feelings for Avon were more affectionate than those for Jenna, he would have been the obvious choice? Even supernatural powers see Blake as straight...:).
Unless, of course, even supernatural powers see Avon and Blake as a couple, and Jenna as "just a friend"
Again open to interpretation, but even if true it doesn't mean he doesn't feel such attractions. Many bisexual people hide one side of their sexuality.>
Talking from experience here :)? Anyway, my own experience of bisexual people suggests that they tend to express both sides of their sexuality, albeit at different times. Hence the term "bisexual."
Express, when and where safe--hide in the face of intolerance.
Now, really. Surely the absence of evidence is pretty significant? If you follow your statement through logically, then we would have to assume that every man, from Casanova through George W. Bush, who has shown affection for a woman, must also be assumed to fancy men unless they declare otherwise. Just because I like chocolate ice cream, it's a bit much to assume that I'll also like vanilla.
Nope! You might just like ice cream.
It's true that being attracted to women does not preclude attraction to men as well. However, if we only ever see a person being attracted to women, I think it can be taken as read which way their preferences lie.
It depends on whom they have to lie to and the consequences of not lying.
-(Y)
--- Dana Shilling dshilling@worldnet.att.net wrote:
Fiona Moore said;
Additionally, I'd raise the matter of "Duel." In
this
episode, to represent the "death of a friend" to Blake, the mysterious women pick Jenna. Not Avon. Surely, if his feelings for Avon were more affectionate than those for Jenna, he would have
been
the obvious choice? Even supernatural powers see
Blake
as straight...:).
Unless, of course, even supernatural powers see Avon and Blake as a couple, and Jenna as "just a friend"
The point of the exercise, in "Duel," was to place the life of somebody Blake cared about in danger, so that should he fail in his responsibility for this person, it would hurt him badly. Since Jenna was chosen over Avon, it's safe to assume that his feelings for the former were stronger than for the latter...
Talking from experience here :)? Anyway, my own experience of bisexual people suggests that they
tend
to express both sides of their sexuality, albeit
at
different times. Hence the term "bisexual."
Express, when and where safe--hide in the face of intolerance.
Leaving aside the fact that there's no evidence one way or the other for homophobia in the Federation, I'd point out that bisexuals I know tend to express their straight side when in an opposite-sex relationship, and their gay side when in a same-sex relationship, regardless of the situation. If they are in a same-sex relationship and in a situation of intolerance, they will conceal this fact, but they won't suddenly switch to the other team just because of the environment.
It's true that being attracted to women does not preclude attraction to men as well. However, if we only ever see a person being attracted to women, I think it can be taken as read which way their preferences lie.
It depends on whom they have to lie to and the consequences of not lying.
I suggest you re-read what I've just said, and think about the possible meaning of the word "lie" in my statement and yours.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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Fiona said:
The point of the exercise, in "Duel," was to place the life of somebody Blake cared about in danger, so that should he fail in his responsibility for this person, it would hurt him badly. Since Jenna was chosen over Avon, it's safe to assume that his feelings for the former were stronger than for the latter...
Or then again, that Sinofar and Giroc's gaydar wasn't tripped...or that they were so happy together that they couldn't stand breaking up anybody's partnership.
Leaving aside the fact that there's no evidence one way or the other for homophobia in the Federation,
It's such a vile place that I figure they have the lot-- homophobia, racism, chocolate rationing...
I'd point out that bisexuals I know tend to express their straight side when in an opposite-sex relationship, and their gay side when in a same-sex relationship,
Are you sure that we have two different sides?
regardless of the situation. If they are in a same-sex relationship and in a situation of intolerance, they will conceal this fact, but they won't suddenly switch to the other team just because of the environment.
A lot of biphobia is due to a belief that we will-- there are always issues of who to come out to, for what reason, but certainly the easier it is to pass the more tempting it can become.
-(Y)
----- Original Message ----- From: Dana Shilling dshilling@worldnet.att.net
Fiona said:
The point of the exercise, in "Duel," was to place the life of somebody Blake cared about in danger, so that should he fail in his responsibility for this person, it would hurt him badly. Since Jenna was chosen over Avon, it's safe to assume that his feelings for the former were stronger than for the latter...
Or then again, that Sinofar and Giroc's gaydar wasn't tripped...or that they were so happy together that they couldn't stand breaking up anybody's partnership.
1) Being supernatural beings, I'd imagine they'd have a better way than gaydar to work out who likes whom.
2) I reiterate that the point of the exercise was to put someone Blake cared about at risk, so that, should they be hurt, Blake would also be hurt badly. If you want to take that message across, and you have a choice of five people, of varying degrees of emotional closeness, to put at risk, it doesn't make sense not to pick the one whose pain would cause the duelist the most distress. I.e., the person whom they care about the most. Otherwise, they might just as well have put Zen down on the planet with him...
Travis ends up with a mutoid, it's true, but there's not a lot of choice on his ship... and interestingly it seems to be a mutoid whom he knew (or at least knew of) in her prior existance, so who knows.
I'd point out that bisexuals I know tend to express their straight side when in an opposite-sex relationship, and their gay side when in a same-sex relationship,
Are you sure that we have two different sides?
<HUGE SIGH>
OK. Bisexuals I know tend to express the *straight end of their sexual continuum* when in an opposite sex relationship, and the *gay end of their sexual continuum* when in a same-sex relationship. It still reads.
way or the other for homophobia in the Federation,
It's such a vile place that I figure they have the lot-- homophobia, racism, chocolate rationing...
Not racism, surely? According to the episode "Traitor," there existed the "stock equalization act," a Federation law which ensured that when a planet was colonized, each race from Earth had to be fully represented in order to give a complete racial mix. Furthermore, Dayna's skin colour is never commented on in a racist way (and seldom remarked upon at all) in the series; interestingly, though, I have seen this done in fanfic...
Anyway, dictatorships tend to be a bit varied as to what they consider repressable and what not; the Ottoman Empire was actually very religiously tolerant for the time, after all, and not all of the fascist regimes in Europe in the mid-century were antisemitic.
regardless of the situation. If they are in a same-sex relationship and in a situation of intolerance, they will conceal this fact, but they won't suddenly switch to the other team just because of the environment.
A lot of biphobia is due to a belief that we will-- there are always issues of who to come out to, for what reason, but certainly the easier it is to pass the more tempting it can become.
But, if I've read you correctly, then you should know that it is just that: biphobia.
But this does raise a more valid point about the series. If the Federation is homophobic, then, if Blake is gay, why is he not showing it? He hates the Federation, after all, and he is on his own ship, in the company of other people with an equal amount of contempt for the Federation. Surely, if he has gay feelings, he not only has no reason to conceal these, but he has every reason to express them. Making it all the more telling that he doesn't...
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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From: Fiona Moore nydersdyner@yahoo.co.uk
Not racism, surely? According to the episode "Traitor," there existed the "stock equalization act," a Federation law
An excellent example of how subcanonical interpretations can be confused with the original canon. Nowhere was it said that the SEA was a Federation law. In fact, we get the following:
AVON: That means the Helots are back in the empire. But they aren't the sort to cave in so quickly! It took the Federation years to subdue them on the first expansion.
And then, later:
DAYNA: D'you think I'll pass for a Helot? AVON: No problem. When Helotrix was first settled, the old Stock Equalization Act was still in force. Every Earth race had to be represented.
That is, Federation conquest came after settlement. The implication is that the SEA is not a Federation law at all. Of course, there are several possible interpretations, eg: *Helotrix was settled under the direction of the Federation (and the SEA), declared its independence and was then forcefully subdued. *the SEA was legislated by a precursor of the Federation, but remained on the books when the Federation assumed the reins of power.
But we are not led to believe that the SEA is Federation law, although - as you amply demonstrate - it is possible to make that misconception.
This goes on all the time in fan discussion, which often leads to fans talking at cross purposes. Another possible example (not one I've actually heard raised, but I think it's perfectly possible), this time from Moloch:
GROSE: Energy-mass transmuter. LECTOR: Takes ordinary planetary matter -- usually rock -- and converts it into energy. The computer then restructures it into matter of every kind. SERVALAN: Precious stones? GROSE: Gems, crystals, anything you like, so long as you've got the original pattern to work from.
I can see at least two possible interpretations of Servalan's remark.
1) an ironic comment on the source of the matter used in the EMT (rock, cheap and abundant, suddenly becomes a valuable resource) 2) she sees the EMT as a possible source of unlimited free jewellery.
I would go for the first, others might opt for the second. It's a while since I've watched this (or any) episode, but I'm very certain that I've never heard the '?' in her remark; that - to me - has been put there by whoever wrote up the transcript (culled here from Judith's website, I think). Which suggests that that person is interpreting her remark as the second of the two possibilities mentioned above. Grose's reply certainly suggests, very strongly, that he is doing so (but that doesn't mean that he has heard her correctly). What I hear is:
LECTOR: Takes ordinary planetary matter -- usually rock -- and converts it into energy. The computer then restructures it into matter of every kind. SERVALAN (musing quietly): Precious stones... GROSE (only half listening): Gems, crystals, anything you like, so long as you've got the original pattern to work from.
Which interpretation you go for does have very real if minor implications on an understanding of Servalan (which in turn might affect your choice of interpretation), viz:
1) ironic musing = Servalan as intelligent, quick-thinking stateswoman, constantly open to consideration of the social or economic implications of anything new. 2) free frippery = Servalan as vain, selfish megalomaniac, pursuing power for her own flagrant self-gratification.
Of course, the two are not mutually exclusive. She can be both, but your interpretation of her 'precious stone' comment might (a) swing you closer to one reading of Servalan than the other, or (b) reinforce a prior reading of Servalan developed through earlier episodes, or (c) run counter to such a prior reading and cause you to revise your impressions of her character.
All that from two words in a generally neglected episode! If we posit that such multiple readings are found throughout the series, acting on each other within the mind of every fan, then it becomes inevitable that a plethora of altercanonical readings will develop, not all of them in agreement with each other. Fans are more or less doomed to be talking at cross purposes to each other, with ensuing misunderstandings. And arguments. Arguments about the canonicity of slash, for example.
ObOT: I have never heard of a penguin eating ice cream.
Neil
----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net
From: Fiona Moore nydersdyner@yahoo.co.uk
Not racism, surely? According to the episode "Traitor," there existed
the
"stock equalization act," a Federation law
An excellent example of how subcanonical interpretations can be confused with the original canon. Nowhere was it said that the SEA was a
Federation
law. In fact, we get the following:
AVON: That means the Helots are back in the empire. But they aren't the sort to cave in so quickly! It took the Federation years to subdue them on the first expansion.
And then, later:
DAYNA: D'you think I'll pass for a Helot? AVON: No problem. When Helotrix was first settled, the old Stock Equalization Act was still in force. Every Earth race had to be
represented.
That is, Federation conquest came after settlement. The implication is
that
the SEA is not a Federation law at all.
OK, point conceded. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the episode to hand, so what I was going on here was the Programme Guide.
However, I still think the balance of available evidence does rule against racism, or overt racism anyway. As I said to Dana, Dayna's race is seldom remarked on and when it is, it's not in a fashion which singles it out at all for denigration *or* approval; neither she nor her father give the slightest hint that they have suffered racial persecution (Hal Mellanby is a rebel, but visibly not a Black Panther); Dayna *does* pass on Helotrix without comment. You can then, of course, raise the paucity of Asian/East Asian/Afrocaribbean officers, gentlemen etc. in the Federation, but to be honest, that seems to be the case for the entire galaxy, even independent or rebel planets/outposts-- and may be more evidence of past than of present racism (much as the fact that there are fewer Jews today in certain European countries than fifty years ago gives evidence not necessarily of modern, but of past antisemitism). We're back to the old negative-evidence argument, and I suppose that depends on where you stand on whether not seen=none or not seen=possible (and which, incidentally, goes for homophobia as well, since we don't see evidence for or against).
I'd also raise the fact that even the slight presence of minority actors would likely at the time have given it a very multiracial feel for the 1970s viewer (witness earlier arguments on visible presence of women)-- however, since in this post Neil is arguing entirely from the text and leaving the social context of the production's creation out, leave it out I shall.
However, the fact that it was the Programme Guide that misled me is an interesting one. The Programme Guide is therefore not canon; a point I'd agree with. But what other "official" written materials are not canon?
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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Fiona Moore wrote:
However, the fact that it was the Programme Guide that misled me is an interesting one. The Programme Guide is therefore not canon; a point I'd agree with. But what other "official" written materials are not canon?
IMHO? All of them. "Canon" is what's on the screen.
Fiona said:
Otherwise, they might just as well have put Zen down on the planet with him...
Now, that would certainly have roused the entire crew to cooperate to rescue Blake!
Not racism, surely? According to the episode "Traitor," there existed the "stock equalization act," a Federation law which ensured that when a
planet
was colonized, each race from Earth had to be fully represented in order
to
give a complete racial mix.
Not too many people like to be referred to as equalized stock.
Furthermore, Dayna's skin colour is never commented on in a racist way (and seldom remarked upon at all) in the series; interestingly, though, I have seen this done in fanfic...
I don't know if the reference in Power ("the black woman must win") is a racist one or simply descriptive (along the lines of "give the secret message to the gal in the blue tunic")
But this does raise a more valid point about the series. If the Federation is homophobic, then, if Blake is gay, why is he not showing it? He hates
the
Federation, after all, and he is on his own ship, in the company of other people with an equal amount of contempt for the Federation.
But who have all been conditioned (particularly in the case of Blake, whose mind has been tampered with in many ways) to hate certain things about themselves and other people.
-(Y)
----- Original Message ----- From: Dana Shilling dshilling@worldnet.att.net Otherwise, they might just as well have put Zen down on the planet with
him...
Now, that would certainly have roused the entire crew to cooperate to rescue Blake!
Kind of hard for them to do so, since the ship was in stasis at the time (and had the computer been gone, they wouldn't have been able to do much anyway).
Fiona said:
Not racism, surely? According to the episode "Traitor," there existed
the
"stock equalization act," a Federation law which ensured that when a
planet
was colonized, each race from Earth had to be fully represented in order
to
give a complete racial mix.
Not too many people like to be referred to as equalized stock.
Perhaps so, but you should take that up with the scriptwriter.
Furthermore, Dayna's skin colour is never commented on in a racist way (and seldom remarked upon at all) in the series; interestingly, though, I have seen this done in fanfic...
I don't know if the reference in Power ("the black woman must win") is a racist one or simply descriptive (along the lines of "give the secret message to the gal in the blue tunic")
I was counting it in the "remarked upon," category, simply because it doesn't seem to be pejorative, or not necessarily pejorative anyway. In one fan story I was thinking of, Dayna is told to "get back to the jungle where your kind belongs" (or words to that effect-- the word "jungle" is definitely there anyway), which is what I *would* consider a racist remark, and the likes of which I've yet to hear in B7.
But this does raise a more valid point about the series. If the
Federation
is homophobic, then, if Blake is gay, why is he not showing it? He hates
the
Federation, after all, and he is on his own ship, in the company of
other
people with an equal amount of contempt for the Federation.
But who have all been conditioned (particularly in the case of Blake, whose mind has been tampered with in many ways) to hate certain things about themselves and other people.
Um-- sorry, where? If we take Blake alone (for reasons which shall be explained below) his conditioning doesn't seem to involve any element of self-loathing, just a desire to conform and a distaste for the rebel movement (if what you mean by your last sentence is to hate other people's political leanings, fair enough, but it's a bit of a stretch).
Secondly, the fact that Blake makes strong (and successful) efforts to reverse his conditioning in many other ways is significant.
Thirdly, I've actually yet to see evidence that Jenna, Vila, Soolin or Avon were conditioned before the series began (for that matter, while Cally and Dayna were subject to mental conditioning within the series, there's no evidence that they were before either). Other than, of course, to socialization, to which we are all subject-- and which is decidedly reversible, especially in the case of homosexuality/homophobia. Even in the case of a homophobic society; there's a very good book, "I Am My Own Woman" (original title Ich Bin Meine Eigene Frau), which is the autobiography of a transgendered man who lived under the Nazis and afterwards, and casts a lot of interesting light on queer resistance to repressive regimes.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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Betty Ragan -
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