Lisa wrote:
Ah. Well, you and the penguins are welcome to read all the socio-politico-type stories you can get your hands & flippers on.
My penguins don't read, they just eat slash.
Because you're missing out on a whole range of experience, that's why.
I'm missing out on a whole range of experience by not eating fried okra and stewed slugs, too. There are experiences my life is definitely richer without.
Ahem, false analogy there. Bit of a difference between political fanfic and bad food.
In my case, the fact that I read slash doesn't mean I don't read anything else. (Fanfic itself is a very small proportion of my reading, and I read both gen and slash if I come across something to my taste.) But even if it did -- and I know people who won't read any fanfic other than slash -- what of it? People aren't obligated to read what they don't like simply because you think they ought to have the "experience".
Let's play the food analogy game further. Some people eat a balanced diet. Some people eat only candy. If I come up to one of the latter and say "you know, eating the odd salad might not be a bad thing," they're certainly not obligated to take my advice, but it's not going to do their complexion or cholesterol rate any good if they don't. No one is saying that people "ought" or "ought not" to read anything-- I'm saying that people should know that slash is only a small part of a vast amount of fanfic of varying quality.
Nor are they likely to derive much benefit from an experience consisting primarily of boredom.
I'm sure Neil Faulkner and the other gen writers out there are delighted to hear that their writing is boring, as compared to a PWP.
So why exactly did you think Blake and Co. were on the run?
*Why* they were on the run was largely immaterial to me. I don't regard it as a major focus of the show; any of a variety of excuses would have done.
It isn't an excuse though, it's the main theme of the show from ep 1 onwards, coming to an abrupt and bloody end in ep 52.
Well, what is it about for you then?
The interrelationships between the characters. (Neil, just hit the delete key now, OK?) Principally Blake and Avon, from my point of view, with peripheral interest from the others. The whole fighting-the-Federation business is, as far as I'm concerned, just there to give them an excuse to bicker, and get into situations, and get each other out of situations, and generally demonstrate the character dynamics, which are what I'm watching for.
That _is_ politics, actually.
I'm not too keen on PWP in general, myself, though there are exceptions --some humorous stories with good dialogue can be quite diverting. A story which is just a sex scene I'll usually pass by, since sex per se is something I don't find terribly interesting.
If you don't find sex interesting, why read slash?
No, it isn't the target audience, it's true. But it does bug me to think of a distorted version of my lifestyle turned into somebody else's fantasy
Life is rough. You don't have jurisdiction over anyone else's fantasies, though if someone starts writing and distributing slash about *you*, I'd say you have some grounds for complaint.
Are you aware that slash and art out there has been produced which actually uses the _actors'_ names and not the characters'? Another reason for them and their families to object to its production.
As it stands, I doubt
whether anyone writing slash -- especially B7 slash -- is writing about *your* lifestyle at all, distorted or otherwise.
But if they're presenting two characters in a gay relationship, then they _are_ writing about my lifestyle. I'm a gay man in a gay relationship. Hence my concern. If somebody, say, wrote a story about a Muslim character which totally misrepresented Islam, would you say to Muslims who objected: "Oh, they weren't writing about _your_ religion"?
If you don't find the
stories believable, don't read 'em. No one says you have to. Heck, there are plenty of them that I don't find believable either, at various levels ranging from "This character wouldn't act like that," to "Men don't act like that," all the way through "No remotely sentient creature would act like that."
So we're agreed then. Slash of course being out of character for straight characters.
If you want to read this sort of slash as a fantasy, fair enough-- but it doesn't have much to do either with gay lifestyles _or_ with the programme itself.
Most slash is concerned with the relationship between two, very specific, characters, not with "lifestyles", gay or otherwise.
Um, sorry, but relationships between two characters _are_ their lifestyle.
And it has just
as much -- and just as little -- to do with the programme as any other fanfic which goes beyond a bald recitation of canon and includes anything of the author's own extrapolation. Whether that extrapolation is compatible with the reader's view of the characters and the show is up to the reader and writer concerned and will vary radically from one person to the next. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't, and there is nothing wrong with that. Your views just don't mesh well enough for you to buy into the author's vision. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't write it; what clashed horribly for you may work perfectly for someone else.
But some sorts of fanfic fit the canon better than others. And if there's no worth in a story beyond a quick wank, what's the point? It's 1984 all over again-- use porn to distract the people from the real issues and stifle discussion.
Nor is one of you
"right" and the other "wrong". Just move on to other authors whose stories are more suited to your taste.
You're really starting to sound like Annie and Leah here. Nobody brought up right or wrong in fanfic, slash or otherwise, prior to this.
And if it bothers you terribly that people
aren't going to restrict themselves to only material of which you, personally, approve -- well, as I said, life is rough. You'll just have to get used to being bothered.
Now I object to this sort of argument. Forgive me, Lisa, but you do sound exactly like Annie and Leah and their "ain't gonna change so get used to it" attitude. Supposing I told you "women are never going to get equal rights to men, you'll just have to get used to it?" Supposing I told you "racism will never go away, you'll just have to get used to it?" If something offends you, you have a choice. Either passively sit around hoping it'll go away, or stand up and make your opinions heard. I know which I'll pick.
Shane
"Resist the host or your oneness will be absorbed" --Zil
Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015
In message OJHIENMJAPCDNAAA@angelfire.com, Shane Little littles@angelfire.com writes
Let's play the food analogy game further. Some people eat a balanced diet. Some people eat only candy.
This caused me a certain amount of giggling, in view of the PWP that Pred and I committed Elsewhere last night... However, back to the discussion in hand. There's nothing wrong with a balanced diet, but you're coming over as saying that people shouldn't eat candy at all. I don't know whether that's the impression you intended to give, but be aware that that is how it sounds. It's annoying people who like a bit of candy in a varied diet, as well as the (IMHO and experience) few who like candy and nothing but candy.
Julia Jones wrote:
This caused me a certain amount of giggling, in view of the PWP that Pred and I committed Elsewhere last night...
Synchronicity strikes again...
- Lisa
-- Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://framecaplib.com/ From Eroica With Love: http://eroicafans.org/
Shane wrote:
Lisa wrote:
In my case, the fact that I read slash doesn't mean I don't read anything else. (Fanfic itself is a very small proportion of my reading, and I read both gen and slash if I come across something to my taste.) But even if it did -- and I know people who won't read any fanfic other than slash -- what of it? People aren't obligated to read what they don't like simply because you think they ought to have the "experience". Nor are they likely to derive much benefit from an experience consisting primarily of boredom.
I'm sure Neil Faulkner and the other gen writers out there are delighted to hear that their writing is boring, as compared to a PWP.
Given that isn't what Lisa said, I'm neither delighted nor horrified.
Una
Shane Little wrote:
My penguins don't read, they just eat slash.
I've got a cat who does that.
Ahem, false analogy there. Bit of a difference between political fanfic and bad food.
Ah, but that's the point -- I didn't say anything about *bad* food, I was referring to food that *I don't enjoy*. There are people who absolutely love okra. Boggles my mind, but they do. Probably the slugs, as well; after all, snails are considered a delicacy by some.
I'm saying that people should know that slash is only a small part of a vast amount of fanfic of varying quality.
Er, I think most people are well aware of that already. It's not exactly a secret.
I'm sure Neil Faulkner and the other gen writers out there are delighted to hear that their writing is boring, as compared to a PWP.
I said nothing comparing Neil's work to a PWP. (What is this thing you've got about PWPs, anyhow? It's not as though they're somehow representative of slash, after all.) However, from what little I know of Neil, I suspect he is a sufficiently mature writer to realize that no writer's work appeals to everyone, and hence there will be people who don't enjoy his, and that this is not necessarily a reflection on the quality of said writing. Yes, there probably *are* people who would like a PWP better than one of Neil's stories, and might be bored by the latter. They're allowed. There are probably also those for whom exactly the opposite is true. They're allowed. There are people who would enjoy neither Neil's work nor a PWP, and some who'd like both. Guess what? They're allowed.
It isn't an excuse though, it's the main theme of the show from ep 1 onwards, coming to an abrupt and bloody end in ep 52.
Your view of the show has been duly noted. I've already stated mine, so I won't repeat.
That _is_ politics, actually.
Oh. Well, then I guess I don't understand what you mean by "politics".
If you don't find sex interesting, why read slash?
Because I enjoy it. (Or enjoy certain, highly specific instances of it -- I'm very picky.) I don't need any other reason or justification. In my case, I'm reading it primarily for the emotional content; I can find the level and type that I want more easily in slash than in gen, usually. I tend to skim through a lot of the sex scenes because, as I said, I don't find sex in itself particularly interesting. Slash stories aren't just about sex, Shane. (Say that three times, quickly.)
Are you aware that slash and art out there has been produced which actually uses the _actors'_ names and not the characters'?
Yes, I am. There is also some about various real people who aren't actors (celebrities in other fields, mostly.)
Another reason for them and their families to object to its production.
An objection which I wholly understand and sympathize with. Making up stories about imaginary characters is called fiction; making up stories about real people is called libel. There's an intrinsic difference -- fictional characters can never know, or be hurt or embarrassed by, anything we make up about them.
But if they're presenting two characters in a gay relationship, then they _are_ writing about my lifestyle. I'm a gay man in a gay relationship. Hence my concern.
But you're not Blake, or Avon, or Vila, or Tarrant. And what about the gay men in gay relationships who like slash and don't have a problem with it? I have this sneaking suspicion that gay men -- and their "lifestyles", whatever that means -- aren't all identical. The portrayals of gay relationships in slash aren't all identical, either. Criticism of certain portrayals I can understand and appreciate -- a good critique from an informed source can be very educational.
So we're agreed then. Slash of course being out of character for straight characters.
Well, sure. But I don't think I've seen much slash about straight characters. Most stories interpret them as homosexual or bisexual. Whether that is a believable interpretation by a given writer, and for a given reader, will vary. See previous comments.
Um, sorry, but relationships between two characters _are_ their lifestyle.
*Their* lifestyle. (I just cringe using that word; my gay friends hate it, and pounce on any instance of it. Fortunately, I don't think they're reading the list.) It's not some kind of sweeping comment on "gay lifestyles". Or on yours.
But some sorts of fanfic fit the canon better than others.
Sure. So? There is no rule that fanfic must fit the canon, loosely, closely, or at all. If it directly contradicts canon -- canon being what we actually saw and heard on screen, not an individual viewer's interpretation thereof -- then it's an AU. That's fine; there's a big market for AUs. And any fanfic gets filtered through the reader's own perception of the show, so there will never be full agreement on how well an individual story agrees with canon. Nor do I see any reason why there should be.
And if there's no worth in a story beyond a quick wank, what's the point?
Maybe a quick wank *is* the point in some cases? But why would you assume that there's no other worth in the story? There's a broad, broad field between a "quick wank" and a story with a "serious message". And there's plenty of room for both, and all the stuff in between.
It's 1984 all over again-- use porn to distract the people from the real issues and stifle discussion.
Many of the most intriguing and in-depth discussions I've ever seen in fandom have been on slash lists, prompted by slash stories. If the purpose of slash stories is to "stifle discussion", all I can say is that they're failing miserably. But in general, their primary purpose is *entertainment*. Entertainment doesn't have to have a message. Sometimes it's just fun for fun's sake.
Nobody brought up right or wrong in fanfic, slash or otherwise, prior to this.
Then what's the problem? If you don't like it, don't read it. If you're trying to tell other people what *they* shouldn't read and write, then right and wrong do enter into it -- unless you're just doing it on a whim. If you don't want to read it yourself, but have no objections to other people doing so, then I wholeheartedly agree with you and we have no argument. But I did not get the impression that was what you were saying; perhaps I mistook your meaning.
If something offends you, you have a choice. Either passively sit around hoping it'll go away, or stand up and make your opinions heard. I know which I'll pick.
OK, you've done that, at least to some extent. (I'm still not sure what it is you want to happen here.) But I submit that there is a wide world of difference between not liking what someone else finds entertaining, and being oppressed and deprived of your rights. The former is simply a difference of opinion; you're not being harmed because someone else enjoys something you don't.
- Lisa
-- Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://framecaplib.com/ From Eroica With Love: http://eroicafans.org/
Re Shane & Lisa discussion:
I'm saying that people should know that slash is only a small part of a vast amount of fanfic of varying quality.
Slash--part of this complete breakfast!
Lisa:
The whole
fighting-the-Federation business is, as far as I'm concerned, just there to give them an excuse to bicker, and get into situations, and get each other out of situations, and generally demonstrate the character dynamics, which are what I'm watching for.
Shane: That _is_ politics, actually.
We ought not to muddle "politics" in the sense of control of nation-states with "the personal is the political."
Lisa:
A
story which is just a sex scene I'll usually pass by, since sex per se is something I don't find terribly interesting.
Shane:
If you don't find sex interesting, why read slash?
Not one of your best, Shane, you must be tired. Lisa said "sex per se"-- which leaves open the possibility of an interesting story where the sex scenes exist in a context that makes them worthwhile reading. My own test is whether the scene would work just as well if you changed "Blake and Avon" to "Kirk and Spock" or "Bodie and Doyle"--if it does, then there's nothing there but the smut. (...not that that's a BAD thing...)
But if they're presenting two characters in a gay relationship, then they _are_ writing about my lifestyle. I'm a gay man in a gay relationship.
Hence
my concern. If somebody, say, wrote a story about a Muslim character which totally misrepresented Islam, would you say to Muslims who objected: "Oh, they weren't writing about _your_ religion"?
Maybe, if the story were about Islam in the 30th century, with nine centuries of changes. In fact it sounds kind of interesting just to speculate how Islam would be altered by that time span.
Lisa:
Most slash is concerned with the relationship between two, very specific, characters, not with "lifestyles", gay or otherwise.
Shane:
Um, sorry, but relationships between two characters _are_ their lifestyle.
But the question is whose lifestyle. Not all gay men in England in 2001 act the same way, and I suppose that all gay men in the Federation in the Second Calendar will act the same way--what kinds of gender roles and identities are available, and how individuals react to them, seem to me to be very interesting areas of inquiry.
-(Y)
"I do not see why it should be necessary to become irrational to prove that I care, or indeed why it should be necessary to prove it at all"
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Dana Shilling -
Julia Jones -
Lisa Williams -
Shane Little -
Una McCormack