On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:14:09 +0100 Jacqueline Thijsen jacqueline.lyst@jthijsen.demon.nl writes:
It's been rearing its ugly head again, and what makes it worse is that it's been brought up by people I used to like and respect.
Please stop it.
For the record, I don't have any uncontrollable fears of homosexuality. It exists and it happens. I also, last time I checked, strongly believe in the civil rights of all human beings and I'm not suggesting anyone be treated as less than a person for any reason. I'm also willing to fight for a person's right to be treated with respect regardless.
Yes, I also happen to disapprove of sex outside of marriage. I'm a conservatively religious person. The fact can be assumed in the absense of evidence to the contrary. I also would say that desires are one thing but we have choices how to act on them. I would also say that the choices we make are important in this life. They determine our happiness, if nothing else.
I'm also 1) not really expecting anyone to agree with me and 2) agreeing with you that this is probably not the place to discuss it. Actually, it seems to be one of those issues that _can't_ be discussed these days. I mean besides the fact that taking certain positions on it openly is not approved. To be on one side or the other is to accept certain ethical ideas that seem to speak foriegn languages. I don't think any of us know how to discuss them anymore, if we ever did.
Ellynne
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At 10:58 25-3-01 -0700, Ellynne G. wrote:
For the record, I don't have any uncontrollable fears of homosexuality. It exists and it happens. I also, last time I checked, strongly believe in the civil rights of all human beings and I'm not suggesting anyone be treated as less than a person for any reason. I'm also willing to fight for a person's right to be treated with respect regardless.
Yes, I also happen to disapprove of sex outside of marriage. I'm a conservatively religious person. The fact can be assumed in the absense of evidence to the contrary.
I guess that "innocent" until proven guilty isn't a big thing where you're from, then. Also, if the sex outside of marriage is the only problem (it isn't a problem for me, but this is for the sake of the discussion), I don't see how this is any worse for gay than for straight people. But I'm sure you'll be relieved to learn that very soon gay people will be able to get married in Holland, solving at least that issue.
I also would say that desires are one thing but we have choices how to act on them. I would also say that the choices we make are important in this life. They determine our happiness, if nothing else.
Agreed, but what does this have to do with the issue at hand? Or are you implying that everyone should make only those choices that you or your religion approve of? Such as not acting on gay feelings?
I'm also 1) not really expecting anyone to agree with me and 2) agreeing with you that this is probably not the place to discuss it. Actually, it seems to be one of those issues that _can't_ be discussed these days.
Sure it can be. It's just that calling the other side immoral doesn't sound like an opening to a discussion. It sounds more like an insult.
Sending this to the spin list, too, since that's where such a discussion, if anyone cares to actually start one, belongs.
Jacqueline
On Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 10:58:56AM -0700, Ellynne G. wrote:
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:14:09 +0100 Jacqueline Thijsen jacqueline.lyst@jthijsen.demon.nl writes:
It's been rearing its ugly head again, and what makes it worse is that it's been brought up by people I used to like and respect.
Please stop it.
For the record, I don't have any uncontrollable fears of homosexuality. It exists and it happens. I also, last time I checked, strongly believe in the civil rights of all human beings and I'm not suggesting anyone be treated as less than a person for any reason. I'm also willing to fight for a person's right to be treated with respect regardless.
Yes, I also happen to disapprove of sex outside of marriage. I'm a conservatively religious person. The fact can be assumed in the absense of evidence to the contrary. I also would say that desires are one thing but we have choices how to act on them. I would also say that the choices we make are important in this life. They determine our happiness, if nothing else.
I'm also 1) not really expecting anyone to agree with me and 2) agreeing with you that this is probably not the place to discuss it. Actually, it seems to be one of those issues that _can't_ be discussed these days. I mean besides the fact that taking certain positions on it openly is not approved. To be on one side or the other is to accept certain ethical ideas that seem to speak foriegn languages. I don't think any of us know how to discuss them anymore, if we ever did.
What she said. (And we aren't even the same religion...)
I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to pretend to be someone or something other than I am. That would be like asking Shane to pretend he wasn't gay, and to demand that he stop talking about the gay point of view.
And no matter how upset anyone gets I'm not going to change my religion. However many names they start calling me. I'm sorry that Jacqueline is upset, but she already knew my point of view (I thought) and she is capable of ignoring it, just as I am capable of ignoring her sexual orientation when I talk to her as a nice, interesting intelligent human being. For goodness' sake, if I held everyone's sins against them, I wouldn't be able to talk to *anybody*! Our sins are between us and God (and those we have wronged). (An oversimplification, but...)
I could start raving on about religious tolerance, but I know that religious tolerance is a myth. It only applies to percieved minorities.
(As for masscres being as bad as gay sex... analogies are very crude things. I tried to pick an example that people would *understand*. Everyone agrees that massacres are wrong, that's why I picked it as an example of something wrong.)
One reason why slash discussion has been encouraged not to take place here, but on the Other List, is because it doesn't seem to be possible for people to dialogue happily about it. It is, as Ellynne said, like talking in a foriegn language -- nobody seems to understand what the other person is saying.
Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "It's a great pity that you and I have always been on opposite sides, Servalan." -- Kerr Avon (Blake's 7: Aftermath [C01])
At 07:56 26-3-01 +1000, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to pretend to be someone or something other than I am.
I don't recall asking you to. It's the casual insult (which you perhaps didn't even see as an insult) that got to me.
That would be like asking Shane to pretend he wasn't gay, and to demand that he stop talking about the gay point of view.
I haven't been reading his messages lately, but has he ever been insulting people or tsk-ing at them for not being gay? Because that's what you have been doing at those who *are* gay.
And yes, I knew your views. But I thought you respected my feelings and those of others like me on this list at least enough to refrain from insulting us. It was quite a shock to be proven wrong in this manner.
Jacqueline
Well well well.
Interesting discussion guys. Rabid attacks and reasoned debate from both sides. Hmmm.
It all comes down to this: believe what you like, and discuss your opinions openly, but the moment you stop being polite to one another, you stop having any credibility in what you say.
On the flip side, remember that someone that doesn't know you can never truly insult you. They may make inappropriate statements, or directly call you names, but to be blunt, who cares? Such people instantly show themselves as less credible in their argument if they find it necessary to insult. This doesn't mean you should entirely discount their opinion, however, but examine their arguments more closely.
This includes generalisations, absolutes and comparisons. Saying "I believe X is true" is much softer and far less likely to draw attack than "because, actually, X is true". Not everyone believes that X is true. No doubt I'll ignore my own advice somewhere in here.
It's a major part of being human that we live with other people. Being with others is the reason we are human - which is why I personally find the current western trend of focus on the individual quite abhorrent, but that's another discussion.
Character assassination? It's very apparent that different people see different characters differently. Would it therefore be true to say that every piece of fanfic holds some form of character assassination for someone out there? Probably.
Religion. All religion has a foundation in faith and belief, and being human these are things that are a fundamental part of us. If one integrates a religion into one's life, it's very hard not to let that permeate into everything we do, and in many cases, that's part of the belief.
Lifestyles are similar to religion - there's a huge amount of overlap. Your lifestyle colours everything you might do or say, and usually involves a set of beliefs. In the main, a lifestyle that doesn't include religion is missing faith. That's not a bad thing - I don't have any particular faith, except perhaps that I feel sure the universe will unfold as it may despite anything the human race might do.
These are not necessarily conscious choices. Belief is an extra-ordinarily powerful thing; once you have integrated a belief into your life, be it religion or lifestyle, you will speak and act based on that without necessarily thinking about it. This is usually not a problem, as you probably spend most of your time with people who have a similar lifestyle or similar beliefs.
And that's the danger. Think carefully about what you say. Belief can become such a strong part of your life that you may forget that others may believe differently. Remember that although you may think they are mistaken, they probably also think you are mistaken. You'll never really truly know in this life who is actually right, although you may believe that you do. That's part of being human too.
Peter.
Ohhh... Peter! I think I love you.
Kathryn wrote:
I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to pretend to be someone or something other than I am. That would be like asking Shane to pretend he wasn't gay, and to demand that he stop talking about the gay point of view.
Ah, but that's it. The people who keep asking me to admit that my perception of homo-eroticism in B7 is something I've wilfully grafted on to the programme, and don't really believe myself, are asking *me* to lie and pretend. I don't expect you to lie, but I don't see why I should either. I merely attempt to give an honest account of what *I* saw, from the very beginning. I presume everyone else is doing the same, and regard the different visions as a matter of curiosity and amusement. There's nothing strange about these different accounts, though; we're all bound to be influenced by our individual backgrounds, attitudes and interests.
For the record, I don't happen to regard the sexual element as the most important thing about the show. And I wish there had been a hell of a lot more politics. That's why I'm always baffled by the rubbishing of Voice from the Past, which gives me more information on the way the Federation worked than most episodes.
Havant: You're obviously suffering from a severe emotional disturbance. We must try to unravel this fantasy. Blake: It is NOT a fantasy. Havant: Of course it isn't. Blake: Do you believe me? Havant: To you it isn't a fantasy.
The Havant scene says so much that is relevant to this discussion!
-
Ellynne G. -
Harriet Monkhouse -
Jacqueline Thijsen -
Kathryn Andersen -
Peter Borg (Lysator) -
Steve Kilbane