Shane said: "Slight misunderstanding here, I think. Cheryl has just said that there's no evidence for gay relationships between these characters within the canon. If that's the case, how can such scenes be "within the boundaries of canon?""
Something can be said to be within canon if it doesn't contradict canon. The fact that it gives us something new doesn't mean it is not within the boundaries of canon.
-- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption
--- Steve Rogerson steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk wrote: > Shane said: "Slight misunderstanding here, I think. Cheryl has just said that there's no
evidence for gay relationships between these characters within the canon. If that's the case,how can such scenes be "within the boundaries of
canon?"
Something can be said to be within canon if it doesn't contradict canon. The fact that it gives us something new doesn't mean it is not within the boundaries of canon.
I am getting a bit confused over the use of the term 'canon' on this list, I always understood the word to mean (in this area) something along the lines of: within the boundaries of what has already been stated/implied, therefore: Vila and alcoholic substances is canon, Vila and blueberry muffins is not. Cally being taken over by alien lifeforms is canon, Avon being an immortal super hero is not. Avon loves Anna is canon, Blake loves Avon or vice versa is not...not in any sense, sexual or otherwise. The regular male characters have never shown any signs of sexual interest in any other male characters, therefore it is not canon, and to write that such relationships exist is in direct contradiction to the behavioural patterns of the characters in the show.
===== Cheryl. (My favourite 'Blake's 7' moment) What a fiasco! We could take over the ship you said, if I did my bit. Well, I did my bit, and what happened? Your 'troops' bumble around looking for someone to surrender to, and when they've succeeded, You, follow suit! (Avon to Blake. "Spacefall")
_____________________________________________________________________________ http://store.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Store - The fastest, easiest way to open an online store.
Cheryl wrote:
--- Steve Rogerson steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk wrote: > Shane said: "Slight misunderstanding here, I think. Cheryl has just said that there's no
evidence for gay relationships between these characters within the canon. If that's the case,how can such scenes be "within the boundaries of
canon?"
Something can be said to be within canon if it doesn't contradict canon. The fact that it gives us something new doesn't mean it is not within the boundaries of canon.
Well, no, that means it's not anti-canonical or AU. ISTM to be _within_ the boundaries of canon, it ought to be a logical inference based on what we actually see on the screen. I think a great deal of the slash debate is really about whether same-sex relationships _are_ a logical inference (compounded by the religious or philosophical objections that many people have to slash). OTOH, there's _lots_ of room to play within the boundaries of a personal subcanon without being anti-canonical.
I am getting a bit confused over the use of the term 'canon' on this list, I always understood the word to mean (in this area) something along the lines of: within the boundaries of what has already been stated/implied, therefore: Vila and alcoholic substances is canon, Vila and blueberry muffins is not. Cally being taken over by alien lifeforms is canon, Avon being an immortal super hero is not. Avon loves Anna is canon, Blake loves Avon or vice versa is not...not in any sense, sexual or otherwise.
Well, no, IMO that doesn't work, either. Take just one of your examples - Avon loves Anna. It's not canonical in the sense that we are ever told it explicitly. We _infer_ it from Avon's behaviour - at least some of us do. Some may not. If you hang out here long enough (and I'm glad you're still here, BTW), you'll see that people definitely do not agree on what is canon, apart from on-screen occurences - and even then motives, subtexts, etc., will be in dispute.
Mistral
I wrote:
(snip)...Avon loves Anna is canon, Blake loves Avon or vice versa is not...not in any sense, sexual or otherwise.
Mistral wrote:
Well, no, IMO that doesn't work, either. Take just one of your examples - Avon loves Anna. It's not canonical in the sense that we are ever told it explicitly. We _infer_ it from Avon's behaviour - at least some of us do. Some may not.
Actually it is mentioned in RoD.
Shrinker asks in respect to Avon, something along the lines of "what did I do to him?"
Dayna replies "You killed someone he loved"
and Vila concurs with "And there aren't many of those about, Avon isn't very lovable in case you hadn't noticed"
There are other points of reference such as when Anna says "I let you go...my love"
and Avon replies "Oh no, you never let me go...you never did"
If you hang out here long enough (and I'm glad
you're
still here, BTW),
Thank-you :-)
you'll see that people definitely do not agree on what is canon, apart from on-screen occurences - and even then motives, subtexts, etc., will be in dispute.
I'm beginning to see that already :-)
===== Cheryl. (My favourite 'Blake's 7' moment) What a fiasco! We could take over the ship you said, if I did my bit. Well, I did my bit, and what happened? Your 'troops' bumble around looking for someone to surrender to, and when they've succeeded, You, follow suit! (Avon to Blake. "Spacefall")
_____________________________________________________________________________ http://store.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Store - The fastest, easiest way to open an online store.
Cheryl wrote:
Mistral wrote:
Well, no, IMO that doesn't work, either. Take just one of your examples - Avon loves Anna. It's not canonical in the sense that we are ever told it explicitly. We _infer_ it from Avon's behaviour - at least some of us do. Some may not.
Actually it is mentioned in RoD.
Shrinker asks in respect to Avon, something along the lines of "what did I do to him?"
Dayna replies "You killed someone he loved"
and Vila concurs with "And there aren't many of those about, Avon isn't very lovable in case you hadn't noticed"
There are other points of reference such as when Anna says "I let you go...my love"
and Avon replies "Oh no, you never let me go...you never did"
Heh. <g> Just as an exercise, and bearing in mind that I agree with you that Avon loved Anna ...
None of the above are canonical proof of that. I'm not even entirely sure that I'd use any of them for evidence as to why _I_ believe that Avon loved Anna, as they're too easy to counter. For example, Dayna's comment, "You killed someone he loved." That she _said_ it is canon; that we take it as evidence that Avon loved Anna requires that we _assume_ (i.e. interpret) that (1) she was being honest, and (2) that she knew what she was talking about. The other above examples have similar issues - we can know canonically what people said and did, but the motivations, feelings, knowledge, etc. behind those words and actions can only be interpreted.
Mind you, in light of recent discussions I should probably point out that I only participate in the above sort of exercise because I personally find it entertaining, and you're perfectly entitled to think what you like.
Mistral
Mistral wrote:
Heh. <g> Just as an exercise, and bearing in mind that I agree with you that Avon loved Anna ...
None of the above are canonical proof of that. I'm not even entirely sure that I'd use any of them for evidence as to why _I_ believe that Avon loved Anna, as they're too easy to counter. For example, Dayna's comment, "You killed someone he loved." That she _said_ it is canon; that we take it as evidence that Avon loved Anna requires that we _assume_ (i.e. interpret) that (1) she was being honest, and (2) that she knew what she was talking about. The other above examples have similar issues - we can know canonically what people said and did, but the motivations, feelings, knowledge, etc. behind those words and actions can only be interpreted.
Mind you, in light of recent discussions I should probably point out that I only participate in the above sort of exercise because I personally find it entertaining, and you're perfectly entitled to think what you like.
(chuckle) Okay, I don't mind seeing where this goes, it could be interesting :-)
Your point about Dayna saying that Avon loved Anna is canon but 'the fact itself' is not neccessarily so is well taken, however; I would like to take this and the other point regarding the final words spoken between Avon and Anna and see if I can approach this from another way...whilst still keeping within canon. For the sake of clarity, I'm going to extract a few lines from a couple of scripts to help make my point.
-
Cheryl _ -
Mistral -
Steve Rogerson