Betty Ragan wrote:
jacquispeel@netscape.net wrote:
With books there are 'if you like "x" you might like
authors a, b, c'
etc. What would people recommend for other B7 viewers?
This is an interesting question, because it touches on something I've been noticing recently: there seem to be an awful lot of very B7ish shows out there these days. Consider...
_Blake's 7...
_Andromeda...
_Farscape...
_Lexx...
But it all leaves me to wonder... Can this possibly be coincidence? Is B7 being consciously imitated? Can we consider all these shows to be direct descendents of B7 in some way or another? Was B7 just ahead of its time? Or what?
I think B7 was ahead of its time.
I love Farscape too, maybe for the same reasons (never thought about it before) - great characters, humour, plots, conflict. And they have really inventive aliens - no 'facial bump of the week' like is Star Trek. Lexx I didn't fancy and never watched.
However, I have a question: What is Andromeda? Up till now I never heard of it; it sounds interesting. No one-eyed maniacs in it, are there? :-)
Nico
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Nicola Mody-Nikoloff wrote:
I love Farscape too, maybe for the same reasons (never thought about it before) - great characters, humour, plots, conflict. And they have really inventive aliens - no 'facial bump of the week' like is Star Trek.
I've only started watching it since they've been re-running it from the beginning on the Sci-Fi Channel, but I fell absolutely in love with it very quickly.
Lexx I didn't fancy and never watched.
It's *definitely* not for everybody. And unfortunately, it's very uneven. At its best it's brilliantly satirical dark humor, but at its worst, it's just... embarrassing.
However, I have a question: What is Andromeda? Up till now I never heard of it; it sounds interesting. No one-eyed maniacs in it, are there? :-)
Its full name is _Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda_ because apparently it was developed from an idea found in Roddenberry's desk or something. :) Don't let that keep you from giving it a chance, though, as it's not exactly another Trek clone. I actually like to think of it as being about a Star Trek character who suddenly finds himself in a B7 universe. The basic premise is that starship captain Dylan Hunt and his ship, the _Andromeda Ascendent_, are trapped in a black hole for 300 years, and when they come out, their happy, Trekkish, Galactic Commonwealth has fallen (quite violently), and the galaxy is now a dark, chaotic, generally very unhappy place. Dylan takes it upon himself to single-handedly bring back the Good Old Days by rebuilding the Commonwealth. This is widely regarded as insane. (It really *is* Blake's mission in reverse!) He joins up with a smuggler and her crew, and with Mr. Sarcastic Bastard, a mercenary who does very much have his own agenda. There's not quite as much bickering as on B7, or for that matter _Farscape_, but the characters *definitely* experience strong differences of opinion.
There are, however, no one-eyed maniacs.
Yeah Farscape I really enjoy. Andromeda on the other hand I gave up on very quickly. I found it very *generic* Very little in it was an original idea and most of it has been done better elsewhere. I can see the clear parallels with B7 though. Andromeda could have been a lot better than it is had they applied a bit of thought and not just relied on Roddenbury's name to sell it.
Leia
Leia Fee wrote:
Yeah Farscape I really enjoy. Andromeda on the other hand I gave up on very quickly. I found it very *generic* Very little in it was an original idea and most of it has been done better elsewhere. I can see the clear parallels with B7 though. Andromeda could have been a lot better than it is had they applied a bit of thought and not just relied on Roddenbury's name to sell it.
IMO it's a lot more hit-and-miss than _Farscape_, but I'm getting to like it better and better as time goes on. If nothing else, the fact that somebody on the writing staff obviously has half a clue about the science earns it my respect.
Betty wrote:
Leia Fee wrote:
Yeah Farscape I really enjoy. Andromeda on the other hand I gave up on
very
quickly. I found it very *generic* Very little in it was an original
idea
and most of it has been done better elsewhere. I can see the clear parallels with B7 though. Andromeda could have been a lot better than
it is
had they applied a bit of thought and not just relied on Roddenbury's
name
to sell it.
IMO it's a lot more hit-and-miss than _Farscape_, but I'm getting to like it better and better as time goes on. If nothing else, the fact that somebody on the writing staff obviously has half a clue about the science earns it my respect.
The writing crew on Andromeda includes Robert Hewitt Wolfe, who was one of the people who made DS9 so good. I really wanted to like Andromeda, but it didn't turn out that way and I dropped it after about six episodes.
Apparently the online fandom is a blast - the writers all hang out at the slipstream website and chat about their episodes in true fanboy fashion.
Una
Una said...
The writing crew on Andromeda includes Robert Hewitt Wolfe, who was one of the people who made DS9 so good. I really wanted to like Andromeda, but it didn't turn out that way and I dropped it after about six episodes.
Yep that's more of less how I felt. I watched it for most of the first season, I really did try to like it but couldn't.
(And that mail shirt really has to chafe!)
Leia
Leia Fee wrote:
Una said...
The writing crew on Andromeda includes Robert Hewitt Wolfe, who was one of the people who made DS9 so good. I really wanted to like Andromeda, but it didn't turn out that way and I dropped it after about six episodes.
Yep that's more of less how I felt. I watched it for most of the first season, I really did try to like it but couldn't.
(And that mail shirt really has to chafe!)
Who cares if it chafes! In my entire life, I have *never* watched a show just for the hunky guy. But Tyr Anasazi is intelligent, misanthropic, tortured, mysterious *and* hunky - how could I resist? And the Tyr-Harper dynamic is as good in its way as Avon-Vila. I'll admit the show's overly cheery and groupy compared to my usual tastes, but I do think it's gotten a little darker recently. And I enjoy looking for B7 parallels and references - they've even had characters (I don't remember whether on-screen or just referenced off-screen) named Jenna and Blake. So I do find it quite entertaining, but of course I have rather narrow, quirky tastes.
Mistral
I wrote...
(And that mail shirt really has to chafe!)
the Mistral wrote...
Who cares if it chafes! In my entire life, I have *never* watched a show just for the hunky guy. But Tyr Anasazi is intelligent, misanthropic, tortured, mysterious *and* hunky - how could I resist?
I've a friend who agrees with you. Last Christmas I sent her a stuffed toy that I'd made leather trousers and a mail shirt for. I think I still have the photo round here somewhere.
Leia
Betty mentioned, in Andromeda's favour:
IMO it's a lot more hit-and-miss than _Farscape_, but I'm getting to like it better and better as time goes on. If nothing else, the fact that somebody on the writing staff obviously has half a clue about the science earns it my respect.
But sadly no more than half a clue about Latin. "Una Salus Victus", indeed. A third-former would know that Victus (nom. sing.) didn't fit in that construction; I've checked the quote, and it's "una salus victis (dat. pl.) nullam sperare salutem (the one [sc. chance of] safety *for* the defeated is not to hope for safety). It's correctly attributed to Aeneid II in the episode guide, but still spelled incorrectly. I just can't believe anyone would be so daft as to use a foreign-language quote and not check it.
OK, there is a fourth-declension noun victus, which is also victus in the genitive, but it means nourishment (victuals), so that would mean the High Guard's motto was "the one chance of getting something to eat". This has a certain appeal, but I don't think it's what the writers intended.
Sorry, end of rant.
Apart from that, I belong to the Andromedan minority, as long as Tyr is written properly. There are some episodes where they completely forget to supply him with self-interested motivation. When he's done right, that sense of melancholy can even make me overlook those ghastly muscles. Oh, I meant to tell you, Betty, I saw a Tyr Anasazi bear on a stall at Eclecticon. The maker told me it wasn't quite finished - no Nietzschean forearm spikes, for a start. But the hair was pretty good. And no muscles.
And Una Salus did make me think "Oh... my... Dylan/Tyr fanfic could be... interesting."
Back to B7 wannabes in general, one thing that interests me is their solutions to crew numbers. I seem to remember that one reason why Gan was killed off was that they decided six (live) crew members were too many to handle in an average plot, so five plus two AIs was the best solution.
Andromeda's characters map very obviously on to B7's first-season crew, but they failed to understand about the numbers problem, as giving the AI an android avatar means seven humanoid(ish) crew. The result is that in a lot of episodes one or two characters get the week off, which is sometimes explained within the plot and sometimes not.
Farscape started off with four humanoids plus Pilot and Rygel, who I suppose could be regarded as Zen and Orac equivalents (one's helpful and bonded with the ship, one's portable, annoying and has a massive superiority complex). I'm discounting Moya as a character, though one could argue that she is, and that they therefore started with seven. Ignoring Moya, though, the arrival of Chiana brought them up to five humanoids plus two, the B7 solution. But since then they've added two more humanoids and lost only one, and Crais has effectively joined the gang. The result is that in mid third season, which is where I'm at, they've had to split the crew between two ships who get alternate episodes.
And Lexx solved it by a drastic pruning to three humanoids plus one robot head, with occasional fellow passengers (I suppose Lyekka was the longest-running of these), so doesn't encounter the numbers problem at all.
Harriet Monkhouse wrote:
Oh, I meant to tell you, Betty, I saw a Tyr Anasazi bear on a stall at Eclecticon. The maker told me it wasn't quite finished - no Nietzschean forearm spikes, for a start. But the hair was pretty good. And no muscles.
Ah, I bet he even looks good as a bear! But, you know, while I normally don't go for musclebound guys, on Tyr they *work*... I think in large part because he seems so very unselfconscious about them. And his ultra-biff physique makes such an interesting contrast with his oh-so-soulful eyes...
Ahem. Where was I?
And Una Salus did make me think "Oh... my... Dylan/Tyr fanfic could be... interesting."
I'm *not* touching that one on this list! :)
Back to B7 wannabes in general, one thing that interests me is their solutions to crew numbers.
What I find interesting is the common approach they all take of having great big ships with a tiny (and rather inadequate for practical purposes) handful of crew. Sort of the opposite of the Star Trek approach, where you've got a ship full of hundreds of people, but simply ignore most of them in favor of the series regulars.
I seem to remember that one reason why Gan was killed off was that they decided six (live) crew members were too many to handle in an average plot, so five plus two AIs was the best solution.
That may have been one reason, though I do remember hearing it said that it was mainly for dramatic purposes: that killing off a character was a way to keep the threat of the Federation serious, as opposed to Coyote and Roadrunner effect, where you know they'll make it out unscathed every week.
Andromeda's characters map very obviously on to B7's first-season crew, but they failed to understand about the numbers problem, as giving the AI an android avatar means seven humanoid(ish) crew. The result is that in a lot of episodes one or two characters get the week off, which is sometimes explained within the plot and sometimes not.
This is rather starting to annoy me, too, especially when a few words of explanation would be easy enough to write in in many cases, and could even be used to serve the purposes of character development. I can easily imagine, for example, why Rev Bem might have wanted a few episodes off by himself after the events at the start of this season...
Farscape started off with four humanoids plus Pilot and Rygel, who I suppose could be regarded as Zen and Orac equivalents (one's helpful and bonded with the ship, one's portable, annoying and has a massive superiority complex).
Hmm, Rygel-Orac isn't a mapping that had occured to me! As you can maybe tell, I was partially mapping him onto *Avon*, although his personality really is a lot closer to Orac's, now that I think about it. His skills are vastly different, though -- I don't think *anybody* is gonna nominate Orac for ship's diplomat -- and he's not remotely as useful as Orac most of the time.
I'm discounting Moya as a character, though one could argue that she is, and that they therefore started with seven.
Well, she and Pilot come as a unit, so I tend to count them as one character, more or less.
Ignoring Moya, though, the arrival of Chiana brought them up to five humanoids plus two, the B7 solution. But since then they've added two more humanoids and lost only one, and Crais has effectively joined the gang.
And don't forget Crichton's pet hallucination. I think he ought to count as at least half a character. :)
The result is that in mid third season, which is where I'm at, they've had to split the crew between two ships who get alternate episodes.
I haven't gotten to that one yet (I've only seen up through the 3rd season time travel ep -- which rocked, btw -- though in a few more weeks I should be all caught up!). But so far they seemed to be doing a pretty good job of making the show work as an ensemble, even if some characters got a lot more to do than others in any given episode. Then again, maybe the addition of Jool will put them over the limit of workable character numbers. Yet another reason to be annoyed with her, maybe...
And Lexx solved it by a drastic pruning to three humanoids plus one robot head, with occasional fellow passengers (I suppose Lyekka was the longest-running of these), so doesn't encounter the numbers problem at all.
And, for a lot of the first season, anyway, Kai spent not-insignificant portions of many episodes frozen...
Harriet Monkhouse wrote:
OK, there is a fourth-declension noun victus, which is also victus in the genitive, but it means nourishment (victuals), so that would mean the High Guard's motto was "the one chance of getting something to eat".
And there goes another keyboard. ;-) Maybe the High Guard were infiltrated by the Mugog (sp?), in which case, the motto would make a lot of sense.
This has a certain appeal, but I don't think it's what the writers intended.
It's one of the problems I have with Andromeda. There's a real lack of humour. And Jarriere, unless I missed him.
The 2nd season is a lot better than the first. In fact, the cliff-hanger at the end of the 1st season was the first episode that had any tension. And there is a story arc now in the 2nd season, even if it is about a big, unquestionably bad enemy with a fully operational death star (well, you know what I mean).
And speaking of time gaps, which we are now, that missing time between Spacefall and C.A. has a parallel in Andromeda. In the 1st season cliffhanger episode, Beka, has a short curly (see, there's another link) blonde bob. At the beginning of the 2nd season, which immediately followed, on both Sky 1 and series time, that cliffhanger, she has a long plait (must have found Soolin's hairdresser). Now I know she has hair that she can change the colour of whenever she likes without the aid of chemical dyes in packets but bombs and explosions are a far more interesting effect so we don't ever actually get to see it except that one episode it was mentioned, but never have they suggested that she has a knob in her neck that you can turn to produce a lot more hair instantly (anyone whoever owned a Girl's World will know what I mean). Or why it would be triggered by a Mugog attack since, as a survival technique, it's about as effective as that of the red kite. </rant - yes i know there's no opening one but hey this is EL not XML>
Kat W
Given our current 'Andromeda' chat, various people will be interested to learn that Robert Hewitt Wolfe has been fired from the show, for putting in too much story and not enough action.
Story at: http://www.slipstreambbs.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002304.html (Kevin 'Hercules' Sorbo's remarks are interesting).
RHW answers questions at: http://www.slipstreambbs.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002318.html.
Una
Una McCormack wrote:
Given our current 'Andromeda' chat, various people will be interested to learn that Robert Hewitt Wolfe has been fired from the show, for putting in too much story and not enough action.
Gaah. Now I'm depressed. Should I even bother to watch the rest of RHW's episodes, or just make a clean break now? 'Less complicated' and 'more Dylan-centric'? What team of geniuses dreamed that up?
Mistral
Una McCormack wrote:
Given our current 'Andromeda' chat, various people will be interested to learn that Robert Hewitt Wolfe has been fired from the show, for putting in too much story and not enough action.
Aaargh! "more episodic," "more Dynlan-centric," "more action," "less character conflict"... In other words, all the things that I actually *liked* about the show and had espeically felt hopeful about for the second season, are out the window. :( OK, guys, forget I mentioned this show as being B7ish, I guess. Looks like it's about to get a lot less so...
Katharine wrote:
It's one of the problems I have with Andromeda. There's a real lack of humour. And Jarriere, unless I missed him.
Damn, I *knew* there was something missing!
The 2nd season is a lot better than the first.
Though the 2nd-season opening credits/music are infinitely worse.
In fact, the cliff-hangerat the end of the 1st season was the first episode that had any tension. And there is a story arc now in the 2nd season, even if it is about a big, unquestionably bad enemy with a fully operational death star (well, you know what I mean).
I'm rather hoping that we might see more of the Pyreans. A non-humanoid alien species, hurrah!
But now I hear that we may not see any more of Andromeda for ages, as Sky has thought of a new excuse to drop it.
And speaking of time gaps, which we are now, that missing time between Spacefall and C.A. has a parallel in Andromeda. In the 1st season cliffhanger episode, Beka, has a short curly (see, there's another link) blonde bob. At the beginning of the 2nd season, which immediately followed, on both Sky 1 and series time, that cliffhanger, she has a long plait
Didn't Cally manage a severe hair cut between series?
And what is it with these hair-scraped-back-into-a-plait looks? Aeryn has suddenly done it, too, and I don't like it at all.
Betty wrote:
Its full name is _Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda_ because apparently it was developed from an idea found in Roddenberry's desk or something. :) Don't let that keep you from giving it a chance, though, as it's not exactly another Trek clone. I actually like to think of it as being about a Star Trek character who suddenly finds himself in a B7 universe.
I found Andromeda one enormous disappointment. The premise offered opportunuities, the characters sounded promising, and I was willing to like it despite the presence of Kevin Sorbo. Unfortunately all that promise was wasted. The quality of the writing is generally appalling. I have sat through many many episodes of Andromeda thinking that they had an interesting plot idea and wasted it. There is absolutely no suspense and precious little dialogue to make these characters anything other than one-dimensional. As Steve said, they brought in what were to all intents and purposes the Borg and still managed to make a dull episode. Dullness is the over-riding characteristic of the show; the writers just naver manage to make me give a damn.
Louise
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Betty Ragan -
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Katharine Woods -
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Una McCormack