Cheryl wrote: <I have to ask though, as I've never been quite sure, does the term 'My Darling' refer strictly to Avon or does it apply to Blake as well?>
<gurgle> yes, I can see it might be confusing. At the risk of reinforcing my character-junkie status and losing Neil's chockie-bribery, a short list of phrases people probably wish I'd forget ...
My Darling (singular) - Avon. He is *slightly* ahead of Blake in my affections, though I adore them both. Don't worry, there *will* be plenty of nice, wallowy Avon-threads for you to enjoy (and Other people to groan about).
My Darlings (plural) - Avon and Blake. The main raison d'etre for Blake's 7, yes, all four seasons and fifty-two shows :-) though Vilakins is nice to have around as well.
My Favourite Autocrat aka Fearless Leader - Blake (who, for a sincere-at-heart democrat, if *very good* at getting his own way and *very bad* at taking orders from anyone at all, even at gunpoint).
My Favourite Gnome - Jarriere.
Our Heroes - the entire crew, yes even the ones I don't like.
Doing The Right Thing - Something that always makes Avon's temper get decidedly worse.
Suffering Beautifully - Avon's major reason for being.
IMO - I am about to write something that will annoy someone.
IMHO - I am about to write something that will *really* annoy someone.
IHMO*only* - I am about to write something about Tarrant.
_________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Sally Manton wrote:
My Favourite Gnome - Jarriere.
You also call him My Angel. See? I do pay attention to the really important stuff.
IMO - I am about to write something that will annoy someone.
IMHO - I am about to write something that will *really* annoy someone.
IHMO*only* - I am about to write something about Tarrant.
Eep! Ah-ha-ha-ha. For some reason this makes me wonder what Vila would be like as a Lystian.
Mistral
Sorry, I've done it again - I hit send and didn't stop it in time before it posted to your private address Sally - sorry. As you can see I've reposted to the list.
--- Sally Manton smanton@hotmail.com wrote:
My Darling (singular) - Avon. He is *slightly* ahead of Blake in my affections, though I adore them both. Don't worry, there *will* be plenty of nice, wallowy Avon-threads for you to enjoy (and Other people to groan about).
Sounds good to me :-)
My Darlings (plural) - Avon and Blake. The main raison d'etre for Blake's 7, yes, all four seasons and fifty-two shows :-) though Vilakins is nice to have around as well.
That's my top three as well, with a slight difference in placings, mine are: Avon, Vila and Blake.
(snip) Blake (snip)*very bad* at taking orders from anyone at all, even at gunpoint).
LOL!
My Favourite Gnome - Jarriere.
IMO - I am about to write something that will annoy someone.
IMHO - I am about to write something that will *really* annoy someone.
IHMO*only* - I am about to write something about Tarrant.
(chuckle) Thanks for the definitions!
Cheryl.
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
_____________________________________________________________________________ http://invites.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Invites - Organise your Mardi Gras party online!
Responding to Sally, Cheryl wrote:
Don't worry, there *will* be plenty of nice, wallowy Avon-threads for you to enjoy (and Other people to groan about).
Sounds good to me :-)
And if you positively can't wait for nice, wallowy Avon threads, you can always wade through the archive (http://tezcatlipoca.algonet.se/) and look for them. :)
(Welcome to the Lyst, btw!)
Oh, *puh-leeze.*
How would you like it if one of the guys started talking about "Jennakins" and calling Cally "My Loveydove?"
My Darling (singular) - Avon. He is *slightly* ahead
of Blake in my
affections, though I adore them both. Don't worry,
there *will* be plenty
of nice, wallowy Avon-threads for you to enjoy (and
Other people to groan
about).
Gee, nice of you to have noticed. Lust after Avon if you must, but try not to make the rest of us sick.
My Darlings (plural) - Avon and Blake. The main
raison d'etre for Blake's 7,
yes, all four seasons and fifty-two shows :-)
Where's that IMO you were talking about?
though Vilakins is nice to have around as well.
Vilakins?! Why is it that every man who isn't dominant has to be seen as some kind of puppy dog?
My Favourite Autocrat aka Fearless Leader -
Well, this is a relief. Normally people who go for avon demonise Blake... though calling him an "autocrat" does make him sound really dominant.
Our Heroes - the entire crew, yes even the ones I
don't like.
Doing The Right Thing - Something that always makes
Avon's temper get
decidedly worse.
So why's he still Your Darling?!? Seems to me the Avon you're talking about and the Avon I see on the screen are two totally different peopl.
Suffering Beautifully - Avon's major reason for
being.
I've never been able to understand this mania for torturing the poor bastard. Not really very nice to him.
IMO - I am about to write something that will annoy
someone.
IMHO - I am about to write something that will
*really* annoy someone.
IHMO*only* - I am about to write something about
Tarrant.
And just what do people have against him?!
Wendy
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
From: Penberriss Wendy S. penberriss@yahoo.com (aka 'shit-stirrer')
How would you like it if one of the guys started talking about "Jennakins" and calling Cally "My Loveydove?"
Something I've never been tempted to do, but then I'm not one to slip into sentimental mode the way Sally seems to do so easily (except when it comes to ittle bitty puddytats, which I do tend to go a bit gooey over).
I've had eight hours of making screen-wash bottles for some air-polluting cat-squashing vehicle or other to think over this, and my Latest Grand Theory is that Sally might do it to reconcile her attraction to the facets she likes of these characters with those aspects that might disturb her (like the way they kill people). Which all ties in with my Other Grand Theory of fannishness arising out of the tension inherent in a viewer's response to a show. Diminishing these crooks, killers and mercenaries into her 'darlings' and 'boys' gives her a measure of control over them, a quasi-maternal role in which she can frown on the less savoury antics of these naughty little children whilst still loving them for who they are.
Of course, if she was coming to Redemption this weekend I wouldn't say any of this, but I know she isn't so there's no chance of her beating me up.
Suffering Beautifully - Avon's major reason for
being.
I've never been able to understand this mania for torturing the poor bastard. Not really very nice to him.
This I cannot argue with.
IHMO*only* - I am about to write something about
Tarrant.
And just what do people have against him?!
Because he dares to disagree with Avon sometimes, and doesn't do it half as well as Blake. I really do fear it's as simple as that.
Neil (thinking of doing a zine sometime in which no story is allowed to feature Avon or have him mentioned by name or even elliptically alluded to)
----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net
From: Penberriss Wendy S. penberriss@yahoo.com (aka 'shit-stirrer')
I prefer to think of myself not as a shit-stirrer but as a crap-defuser.
my Latest Grand
Theory is that Sally might do it to reconcile her
attraction to the facets
she likes of these characters with those aspects
that might disturb her
(like the way they kill people). Which all ties in
with my Other Grand
Theory of fannishness arising out of the tension
inherent in a viewer's
response to a show. Diminishing these crooks,
killers and mercenaries into
her 'darlings' and 'boys' gives her a measure of
control over them, a
quasi-maternal role in which she can frown on the
less savoury antics of
these naughty little children whilst still loving
them for who they are.
In that case, why watch B7 at all, and not some male version of Baywatch? It's turning a savvy show about terrorism into some sort of sex fantasy (please, people, take it over to the Freedom City list!). As for the quasi-maternal thing, it's a bit disturbing-- I'm sure the mothers of the bombers in Ireland think of their boys as naughty little children as well... I like people who THINK about what they're saying...
Suffering Beautifully - Avon's major reason for
being.
I've never been able to understand this mania for torturing the poor bastard. Not really very nice
to
him.
This I cannot argue with.
Exactly. If somebody wrote about one of the girls being sadistically tortured, there'd be an outcry. But somehow if you tortuer Avon, it's supposed to be erotic.
This also fits in badly, IMHO, with the whole "My Darling" thingy. ON the one hand you call him all these cutesy names, and on the other you want to beat him up? It's a weird mix of sugary sentiment and terrifying cruelty.
IHMO*only* - I am about to write something about
Tarrant.
And just what do people have against him?!
Because he dares to disagree with Avon sometimes,
and doesn't do it half as
well as Blake. I really do fear it's as simple as
that.
I'm afraid you're right.
Neil (thinking of doing a zine sometime in which no
story is allowed to
feature Avon or have him mentioned by name or even
elliptically alluded to)
No, have him in there, please! Just write him well and honestly.
Wendy
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
"Penberriss Wendy S." wrote:
I like people who THINK about what they're saying...
Unfortunately, you've made it painfully clear that you like people who think exactly what you do. Anyone who's read a half-dozen or so of Sally's posts ought to be able to see that she puts a lot of thought into them - not to mention a great deal of goodwill and respect for other fans and their diverging opinions, something you could use lessons in. And so could I, but in this case, I just can't bring myself to care.
Mistral
--- Mistral mistral@centurytel.net wrote:
"Penberriss Wendy S." wrote:
I like people who THINK about what they're
saying...
Unfortunately, you've made it painfully clear that you like people who think exactly what you do.
No. I have a lot of respect for people on the list who have different opinions to me. I just don't like people who say things and expect everyone to agree with them. And I have said before that this is not true of me.
Anyone who's read a
half-dozen or so of Sally's posts ought to be able to see that she puts a lot of thought into them - not to mention a great deal of goodwill and respect for other fans and their diverging opinions, something you could use lessons in. And so could I, but in this case, I just can't bring myself to care.
It's not Sally per se. Sally just happened to write the post that set me off. But this S/M stuff has been going on here for months and I'm tired of it. I don't mind that some people like slash, but if I see a slash zine I'm not forced to buy it. But every time I open my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep that sort of thing on the other list, where it belongs.
Wendy
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Okay, I have put my serious, communicative hat on; let's see if I can keep it from falling off...
"Penberriss Wendy S." wrote:
--- Mistral mistral@centurytel.net wrote:
"Penberriss Wendy S." wrote:
I like people who THINK about what they're
saying...
Unfortunately, you've made it painfully clear that you like people who think exactly what you do.
No. I have a lot of respect for people on the list who have different opinions to me. I just don't like people who say things and expect everyone to agree with them. And I have said before that this is not true of me.
In all honesty, I don't think _anybody_ here expects to always be agreed with. I certainly don't; that's one of the first lessons I learned here.
I accept your word for it that you don't expect it either. But the words in which you express yourself are giving _some_ of us entirely the opposite signals - you repeat yourself without adding new information, you use inflammatory language, you shout. Lots of us occasionally do these things by accident or design - I know sometimes I'm ruder than I intend to be - but you seem to have a very high level of these red flags in your posts. If you're not _deliberately_ being offensive, wouldn't it be prudent to try and figure out why you're coming across that way, and remedy it? I might enjoy having an actual _conversation_ with you; but mostly, I feel I'm being ranted at.
Anyone who's read a
half-dozen or so of Sally's posts ought to be able to see that she puts a lot of thought into them - not to mention a great deal of goodwill and respect for other fans and their diverging opinions, something you could use lessons in. And so could I, but in this case, I just can't bring myself to care.
It's not Sally per se. Sally just happened to write the post that set me off.
But <confused now> you get to rant at Sally and that's not personal, but when we object to you doing it and point it out, that is personal? That's a bit of a double standard, don't you think? And it isn't the first time - you did it in the Deliverance thread, too. That's the _only_ reason I said anything here, just because you seemed to be attacking Sally repeatedly.
And lest you think that I feel this way because I agree with Sally - I'm baffled by the attraction of Beautiful Suffering, don't much care for H/C (AFAIK), don't read smut-fic (at least not for the smut), and Blake drives me 'round the twist; and Sally and I are probably the two most vocal polar opposites in one particular debate that everybody would probably prefer I not mention. But it's _fun_ to debate with Sally, because it's all about the ideas - it never gets personal, there's no hint of 'well, if you don't agree with me, you're just sick'.
Which is why it sickens me to see her under fire. Please just do me one favour; go back and read the post you wrote to her, and ask yourself if it honestly wouldn't bother you if someone used that kind of tone with you. And then, if you want to take aim at me, go ahead; I probably deserve it. But Sally doesn't; she's one of the most polite and good-willed of the regular posters here.
But this S/M stuff has been going on here for months and I'm tired of it. I don't mind that some people like slash, but if I see a slash zine I'm not forced to buy it. But every time I open my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep that sort of thing on the other list, where it belongs.
Okay, a few points, which I'm going to enumerate (for clarity, not to be snippy):
(1) Beautiful Suffering, while not my thing, is canonical; it appears onscreen in several eps, and thus, to my mind, is legitimate lyst fodder. It's always okay to skip threads one isn't interested in; maybe we need to be more careful about changing the subject line when the threads mutate, so certain topics are more easily avoided?
(2) H/C is not necessarily either S/M or slash. It's also canonical - strictly speaking, the scene in which Dayna kisses Avon could be viewed as H/C. Putting a character through the wringer isn't always about beating him up - sometimes it's about dramatic tension. The protagonist has to overcome obstacles; physical pain can be (and often is) one of those. And my impression is that most H/C fans are more interested in the comfort part, anyway.
(3) If I understand correctly, there aren't any rules against discussing adult topics on lysator. The Other List is a matter of courtesy on the part of those who enjoy discussing adult subjects, so that those of us who prefer to remain more childlike <g> (while still having an adult _level_ of discussion) have a place where we can participate in online fandom, too. I'm extremely grateful to have such a place; and it's as well to keep in mind that since there are no hard and fast rules, and since people will always disagree about what adult subject matter is, occasionally one might run into something one would rather not read. But frankly, I've heard _much_, _much_ worse in the corner grocery. My suggestion is, ignore it.
Mistral
--- Mistral mistral@centurytel.net wrote:
I'm answering more people than just Mistral here, though.
<snipping reaction to my posts; I've said everything on that subject I want to say>
(1) Beautiful Suffering, while not my thing, is
canonical; it appears
onscreen in several eps, and thus, to my mind, is
legitimate lyst
fodder.
Yeah, but we seem to be getting back into the whole "different interpretations" thing. In, for instnace, RoD, Avon suffers. You can't deny it. But while some people here look at this and see Beautiful Suffering, somebody like, say, Fiona might look at it and just see suffering, no beauty involved (I'm citing Fiona by name because she's said things along this line-- NOT meaning to offend)? So whether it's canonical or not is IMO a point along the same lines as whether or not Deliverance is sexist. And no one wants to get back into that :).
(2) H/C is not necessarily either S/M or slash.
It's also canonical -
strictly speaking, the scene in which Dayna kisses
Avon could be viewed
as H/C.
See what I said before. I'm not denying that in the series people are hurt and sometimes they are comforted-- just that what counts as hurt and comfort can come down to opinion. It could be H/C-- or it could be curiosity on Dayna's part (how many non-primitive men has she seen other than her father lately), or a welcome, or soemthing else :). I'm not sure how much of what people see as H/C today was intended to be seen as such by the writers-- *I* think very little. And I don't think it was ever intended to be the focal point of the episodes.
(3) If I understand correctly, there aren't any
rules against discussing
adult topics on lysator.
I've just checked out Calle's URL-- that's http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/b7list/FAQ.html-- and it says that the Other List was started precisely because discussions about sex on Lysator led to nasty flamewars between the people who like it and the people who don't.
Now, there are several people on the list who I know write slash-- and some of these whose slash involves h/c or Beautiful Suffering. But most of these people don't talk about it on this list (most of them haven't even joined in here!)-- or if they do they only mention it in passing. This is fine, and doesn't offend anyone. But while a lot of people have jumped in to say that h/c *need not* be sexual, most people agree that it *can be* sexual, *is often* a part of slash, and so on. So it shouldn't come as a *total* surprise that some people have taken it as sexual.
Perhaps all this means is that sex, or what some people see as sexual, is starting to reach levels on the main list that are getting offensive to at least a few people?
occasionally one might run into something one would
rather not read.
It's not really just occasionally, though. To refer to the post I just made to Carol, lurking around I've seen a whole lot of threads which start off intelligently degenerating into talk about whether Avon or Tarrant is sexier or descriptions of Steven Greif in black leather. Which as I said is fine for a little bit but sometimes it gets extreme. IMHO.
My suggestion is, ignore it.
And from now on I will.
Wendy
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
----- Original Message ----- From: Mistral mistral@centurytel.net
"Penberriss Wendy S." wrote:
I like people who THINK about what they're saying...
Unfortunately, you've made it painfully clear that you like people who think exactly what you do.
1) I didn't take Wendy's posts as meaning that, just that she wanted people to think their arguments through and not just post based on gut feeling. Which I agree with.
However...
2)Wendy, please don't be offended if I say that that really *wasn't* all that subtle. You seem to have gotten too worked up to take your own advice about thinking before you post.
Anyone who's read a half-dozen or so of Sally's posts ought to be able to see that she puts a lot of thought into them - not to mention a great deal of goodwill and respect for other fans and their diverging opinions,
At the risk of offending other people, may I please restate that, while I usually find Sally's posts entertaining, I do find the concept of Suffering Beautifully a bit upsetting? While I have no objection to violence, suffering or torture in a storyline, and I agree that these aren't always eroticised, there's something about the thought of pain making someone more beautiful that *does* have disturbing overtones to me. And I also sometimes feel as if nobody really questions the concept at all--like it's just assumed that everyone's OK with this.
But then, other people probably do what I do-- i.e. delete the posts.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
_________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Fiona said:
there's something about the thought of pain making someone more beautiful that *does* have disturbing overtones to me. And I also
sometimes
feel as if nobody really questions the concept at all--like it's just assumed that everyone's OK with this.
I think that it has been examined, at least to some degree. And it's a very complex phenomenon--not only is the reader in the position of the sadistic viewer aroused by the spectacle of pain, the reader is also in the masochistic position of "gosh, aren't I brave?" and rewarded by being taken care of.
-(Y)
From: Penberriss Wendy S. penberriss@yahoo.com
I prefer to think of myself not as a shit-stirrer but as a crap-defuser.
Very noble, very idealistic, but above all very futile. You're not going to change anyone's perceptions of anything by forcing your own on them. Rather you're going to get them digging their heels in.
In that case, why watch B7 at all, and not some male version of Baywatch?
To some fans, B7 *is* a male version of Baywatch.
It's turning a savvy show about terrorism into some sort of sex fantasy
I'm not sure it's really all that savvy, and certainly not all of the time.
I like people who THINK about what they're saying...
This whole tone reminds me of someone. A short and hairy hedgehog who has managed to get up more than nose in his wretched excuse for a life...
Exactly. If somebody wrote about one of the girls being sadistically tortured, there'd be an outcry. But somehow if you tortuer Avon, it's supposed to be erotic.
There is an added dimension to victimisation where female characters are concerned. It is difficult, for a male writer at least, to injure a woman without some misogynistic subtext being implicit. This would go double for a hurt/comfort scenario. I have personally shot Cally in the leg in one published story, and was working on another where several women got gruesomely killed (though not for being women, per se), and in another published story I had Dayna slashed by an alien monster, an OCF having her leg ripped off and a little girl pulled in half (several male characters suffered badly too. Including Avon, who apparently suffered beautifully whereas Dayna didn't).
On the other hand, you can leave the women alone and have them unrealistically impervious to any kind of injury whatsoever. It's one of those charming double binds that us writers have to struggle with.
This also fits in badly, IMHO, with the whole "My Darling" thingy. ON the one hand you call him all these cutesy names, and on the other you want to beat him up? It's a weird mix of sugary sentiment and terrifying cruelty.
They have to beat him up to get away with calling him all these cutesy names. It's a way of putting him where they want him.
Neil (thinking of doing a zine sometime in which no
story is allowed to
feature Avon or have him mentioned by name or even
elliptically alluded to)
No, have him in there, please! Just write him well and honestly.
But the CJs who BUARA him think they are doing just that.
Neil (who actually enjoys Wendy's posts)
PS Not just to Wendy but to all those others who do it - please don't cc to me when you post to the Lyst. If it goes to the Lyst I'm going to read it anyway, so I don't need a duplicate.
--- Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net wrote:
From: Penberriss Wendy S. penberriss@yahoo.com
I prefer to think of myself not as a shit-stirrer
but
as a crap-defuser.
Very noble, very idealistic, but above all very futile. You're not going to change anyone's perceptions of anything by forcing your own on them. Rather you're going to get them digging their heels in.
I'm NOT forcing my opinions on anyone. I'm EXPRESSING my opinions. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, anymore than I'm sure Sally expects everyone to agree with her.
I like people who THINK about what they're
saying...
This whole tone reminds me of someone. A short and hairy hedgehog who has managed to get up more than nose in his wretched excuse for a life...
Um... explain please?
This also fits in badly, IMHO, with the whole "My Darling" thingy. ON the one hand you call him all these cutesy names, and
on
the other you want to beat him up? It's a weird mix of sugary sentiment
and
terrifying cruelty.
They have to beat him up to get away with calling him all these cutesy names. It's a way of putting him where they want him.
Ah. So... it's a question of control?
Neil (thinking of doing a zine sometime in which
no
story is allowed to
feature Avon or have him mentioned by name or
even
elliptically alluded to)
No, have him in there, please! Just write him well
and
honestly.
But the CJs who BUARA him think they are doing just that.
I'd dispute CJ. Many CJs *do* write him well and honestly. IMHO, anyway...
Neil (who actually enjoys Wendy's posts)
I'm sure everyone does, really :).
Wendy
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
From: Penberriss Wendy S. penberriss@yahoo.com
I'm NOT forcing my opinions on anyone. I'm EXPRESSING my opinions. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, anymore than I'm sure Sally expects everyone to agree with her.
But that is the problem. You're not really expressing any opinion at all, apart from labelling certain areas of fan thought as 'crap' without offering a constructive alternative. By attacking one opinion without presenting a defence of anything that can be recognised as your own counter-opinion, you give people nothing but your name to counter-attack. That makes it personal, and through being driven to counter-attack on a personal level, your original thrust is highly likely to be interpreted likewise. As indeed has happened.
This whole tone reminds me of someone. A short and hairy hedgehog who has managed to get up more than nose in his wretched excuse for a life...
Um... explain please?
Me. I've dealt in pretty much this kind of agit-prop myself, via someone else who posted on my behalf, and as I recall I got vitriolically flamed for it. Not unjustifiably, either. But then I was still in my Angry Young Man phase (I'm a late developer, obviously) . Hopefully I'm now wiser as well as older. Wise enough, at least, to have realised that it simply doesn't work, and it's not the way to enter into constructive dialogue with an opposing point of view. If anything, it creates needless opposition, turning potential allies against you.
Basically, I like a lot of the things you've said over the past month, but I'm not quite so happy with the way you've said them. An a priori assumption that there are areas of fan thought than some people would prefer not to discuss is an easy assumption to make (I've done it myself), but not necessarily a correct one. I don't know how long you've been lurking on Lyst or how thoroughly you've checked the archives, but the matter of h/c and the moral dubiousness of it has been discussed before and not that many months ago. I said almost exactly what Fiona said a few hours ago: Suffering can never be Beautiful. As is typical with discussion on the Lyst, much was said but few if any opinions were significantly altered. If you don't like that, you just have to learn to lump it.
Life's a gratuitously unnecessary pejorative allusion to a female canine.
Neil
----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net
Me. I've dealt in pretty much this kind of agit-prop myself, via someone else who posted on my behalf, and as I recall I got vitriolically flamed
for
it. Not unjustifiably, either. But then I was still in my Angry Young
Man
phase (I'm a late developer, obviously) . Hopefully I'm now wiser as well as older. Wise enough, at least, to have realised that it simply doesn't work, and it's not the way to enter into constructive dialogue with an opposing point of view. If anything, it creates needless opposition, turning potential allies against you.
In fairness to Wendy, I have to say that I've often found that when I raised issues, in my usual pedantic, logic-diagram style, that I thought were sure to stir up discussion, they've gone totally ignored, sometimes to my disappointment. I mean, if I'd come on the list and said "I find issues of gender and sexuality in Deliverance, especially with regard to Avon's conduct in Meegat's presence, occasionally questionable," would anyone have responded at all? Whereas Wendy's post, using provocative words like "sexism," got people talking about the wider issues.
See? She's even got *me* participating on a thread about slash fiction. I think I saw a pig fly past my window...
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
_________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Fiona Moore wrote:
I mean, if I'd come on the list and said "I find issues of gender and sexuality in Deliverance, especially with regard to Avon's conduct in Meegat's presence, occasionally questionable," would anyone have responded at all?
I probably would have found that a *much* better and more interesting discussion than what we got, actually, but maybe that's just me...
Betty said:
Fiona Moore wrote:
I mean, if I'd come on the list and said 'I
find issues of
gender and sexuality in Deliverance,
especially with regard to Avon's
conduct in Meegat's presence, occasionally
questionable,' would anyone have
responded at all?
I probably would have found that a *much* better and more interesting discussion than what we got, actually, but maybe that's just me...
That's what you *did* get, once the shouting died down...
Shane
"You don't win wars by running away" --Servalan
Neil said:
To some fans, B7 *is* a male version of Baywatch.
Unfortunately, however, post-1978 events have raised the bar on male pulchritude--it's shuddersome enough watching them shirtless in Horizon. Bathing suits are not to be thought of.
On the other hand, you can leave the women alone and have them unrealistically impervious to any kind of injury whatsoever. It's one of those charming double binds that us writers have to struggle with.
There's no reason why, if I can write stories to give Avon a nice vacation, lovely meals, and cashmere sweaters, you can't do the same for Jenna and Cally.
Wendy said:
This also fits in badly, IMHO, with the whole "My Darling" thingy. ON the one hand you call him all these cutesy names, and on the other you want to beat him up? It's a weird mix of sugary sentiment and terrifying cruelty.
But it's different people at different times for different purposes (Lyst posts vs. fanfic), and the IRONY tag is usually implemented.
PS Not just to Wendy but to all those others who do it - please don't cc
to
me when you post to the Lyst. If it goes to the Lyst I'm going to read it anyway, so I don't need a duplicate.
I don't think anybody deliberately CCs you, the wretched software automatically goes to to the person being replied to--I think people just forget to go back and delete your name.
-(Y)
----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net
Suffering Beautifully - Avon's major reason for
being.
I've never been able to understand this mania for torturing the poor bastard. Not really very nice to him.
This I cannot argue with.
Me either. IMO, there's nothing beautiful about suffering.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
_________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
--- "Penberriss Wendy S." wrote: > Oh, *puh-leeze.*
How would you like it if one of the guys started talking about "Jennakins" and calling Cally "My Loveydove?"
I'm sorely tempted to start referring to the fastest gun on Xenon as my ickle Sooleywooley.....Sorry, dizzy spell, did I write something there ?
IHMO*only* - I am about to write something about
Tarrant.
And just what do people have against him?!
He can be intensely annoying. Mind you so can all the other characters which doesn't stop them being popular. I think that he was not always as well written as he could have been. In Volcano, for example, he's very well observed. He has the sort of cynicism of which only the young are capable of (When he melodramatically tells Dayna that the only person he trusts is himself) and he's high handed and tactless with Hower. On the other hand he is unfussily heroic when he rescues Cally and has the sense to realise that Dayna's voices might be useful. In other episodes his bad characteristics are played up at the expense of his good ones - Sarcophagus and Assasin for example. Oh, and of course he must annoy the Avdolators immensely.
Stephen.
____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
-
Betty Ragan -
Cheryl _ -
Dana Shilling -
Fiona Moore -
littles＠lycos.co.uk -
Mistral -
Neil Faulkner -
Penberriss Wendy S. -
Sally Manton -
Stephen Date