Sally, I'm too busy these days to even read the Lyst, let alone send my comments, but I feel obliged to respond to your post. I've joined only three or four months ago, so my impressions are still vague. Still, FWIW, I think you are one of the kindest, friendliest persons on this list. I enjoy reading your posts and find them witty and charming and I also think you are a very talented writer. You've a strong personality and you probably don't need this 'mental hug', but I send it to you anyway.
As for the desire to write stories in which someone gets hurt (and I'm not immune to this, either) - I guess the shrinks would label it as a kind of regression, but I really don't think it should upset anyone. I'd rather say it's a case of our own neurosis curing us, a way to let off some steam. If you (I mean 'anyone') can find a way of presenting your private chimeras to the world without the world flinching, then good for you. Those who preach strict morality are much more likely to butcher someone in real life than those who try to come to terms with their irrational self. It is an important aspect of creative writing which should be recognized. Writing is self-healing, among other things. This goes for me too. I will not glorify such stories, but I will not condemn them, either.
(BTW,in the long history of Shakespeare criticism, I can't recall a single critic who accused Shakespeare for making Hamlet suffer so much. For centuries the audience has experienced aesthetic pleasure in his suffering, and some would probably call it beautiful.)
N.
As for the desire to write stories in which someone gets hurt (and I'm not immune to this, either) - I guess the shrinks would label it as a kind of regression, but I really don't think it should upset anyone. I'd rather say it's a case of our own neurosis curing us, a way to let off some steam. If you (I mean 'anyone') can find a way of presenting your private chimeras to the world without the world flinching, then good for you.
I don't think it's working. I just saw a whole lot of people flinch...
Those who preach
strict morality are much more likely to butcher someone in real life than those who try to come to terms with their irrational self.
Anyone got the stats on that?
(BTW,in the long history of Shakespeare criticism, I can't recall a single critic who accused Shakespeare for making Hamlet suffer so much. For centuries the audience has experienced aesthetic pleasure in his suffering, and some would probably call it beautiful.)
Didn't think that when John Savident played Hamlet. Or Basil Brush... anyway, big difference between fan slash and Eng. Lit. in *my* opinion...
Shane
"Sentiment breeds weakness. Let it get a hold of you and you're dead." --Avon
Shane, quoting Natasa wrote:
As for the desire to write stories in which someone gets hurt (and I'm not immune to this, either) - I guess the shrinks would label it as a kind of regression, but I really don't think it should upset anyone. I'd rather say it's a case of our own neurosis curing us, a way to let off some steam. If you (I mean 'anyone') can find a way of presenting your private chimeras to the world without the world flinching, then good for you.
I don't think it's working. I just saw a whole lot of people flinch...
I may be misunderstanding you, Shane, but I found Natasa's post (as ever from her) insightful, compassionate and well-judged.
Una
--- littles@lycos.co.uk wrote: >
Those who preach
strict morality are much more likely to butcher someone in real life than those who try to come to terms with their irrational self.
Anyone got the stats on that?
No stats as such - but I'm pretty sure that the Crusades, the Abigensian massacres, the Inquisition, The Thirty Years War, The Jacobin Terror, Stalinism, Maoism and the Khomenist brand of Islam were motivated by a desire to impose a particular view of society and morality on those who resisted it, rather than a desire to write fan-fic where Avon gets hurt and Vila gives him a cuddle.
Just an educated guess. (And as always MHO)
Stephen
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----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Date stephend999@yahoo.co.uk
--- littles@lycos.co.uk wrote: >
Those who preach
strict morality are much more likely to butcher someone in real life than those who try to come to terms with their irrational self.
Anyone got the stats on that?
No stats as such - but I'm pretty sure that the Crusades, the Abigensian massacres, the Inquisition, The Thirty Years War, The Jacobin Terror, Stalinism, Maoism and the Khomenist brand of Islam were motivated by a desire to impose a particular view of society and morality on those who resisted it, rather than a desire to write fan-fic where Avon gets hurt and Vila gives him a cuddle.
No stats on it either, myself, but I'm also pretty sure that my uncle, a retired Church of England clergyman who is both as strictly moral and as compassionate and gentle as they come (and who preached strict morality from the pulpit for thirty-odd years), would be more than horrified to learn that he is about to start wielding a butcher knife on the neighbours :).
Secondly, I somehow don't think that the Khomenist etc. regimes would have been improved if they all sat down and wrote h/c fan-fic :). Finally, I'd also like to point out that some of the loudest defences of this sort of fanfic have come from America, which, I'm sorry to say it but it has to be said, has one of the worst records in the world for attempting to impose its worldview, moral standards and values on weaker nations.
(Given the charged nature of discussion on this list, I'm going to add the rider at this point that I'm not accusing anyone on the Lyst of neo-colonialism. I'm just pointing out that to say morally-rigid-bad, touchy-feely-good is to simplify the issue).
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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--- Fiona Moore wrote: >
Those who preach strict morality are much more likely to butcher someone in real life than those who try to come to terms with their irrational self.
Anyone got the stats on that?
No stats as such - but I'm pretty sure that the Crusades, the Abigensian massacres, the
Inquisition,
The Thirty Years War, The Jacobin Terror,
Stalinism,
Maoism and the Khomenist brand of Islam were
motivated
by a desire to impose a particular view of society
and
morality on those who resisted it, rather than a desire to write fan-fic where Avon gets hurt and
Vila
gives him a cuddle.
No stats on it either, myself, but I'm also pretty sure that my uncle, a retired Church of England clergyman who is both as strictly moral and as compassionate and gentle as they come (and who preached strict morality from the pulpit for thirty-odd years), would be more than horrified to learn that he is about to start wielding a butcher knife on the neighbours :).
No disrespect was meant to your Uncle or anyone else in the C of E (of which I have the honour to be a - doubtless unworthy - member) or indeed any other denominations or religions, Republican deists or Marxists on this list. I would argue that Christianity at it's best tempers it's strict morality with an awareness of human frailty. Hence the difference between your Uncle and, say, Pope Innocent III.
Secondly, I somehow don't think that the Khomenist etc. regimes would have been improved if they all sat down and wrote h/c fan-fic :).
To go back to Nastasa's original post, the point she was making was about using literature (h/c fan fic in this instance) to explore one's vulnerabilities. This is an exercise in emotional literacy as well as literary skill. I have to say that as far as the Khomeni regime was concerned, using children to clear landmines bespeaks a certain amount of emotional illiteracy (to put it mildly). No I'm not seriously suggesting that h/c fan-fic is some kind of panacea, and I'm not overly keen on it from a literary point of view. But I think it probable that people who can empathise with other people are less likely to advocate or implement the sort of things I mentioned in my previous post.
Finally, I'd also like to point out that some of the loudest defences of this sort of fanfic have come from America, which, I'm sorry to say it but it has to be said, has one of the worst records in the world for attempting to impose its worldview, moral standards and values on weaker nations.
Hmm, this could cast an entirely new light on the Monroe doctrine :)
(Given the charged nature of discussion on this list, I'm going to add the rider at this point that I'm not accusing anyone on the Lyst of neo-colonialism. I'm just pointing out that to say morally-rigid-bad, touchy-feely-good is to simplify the issue).
Ideally the two should be combined.
Stephen.
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----- Original Message ----- From: Natasa Tucev tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu To: blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [B7L] Sally-speak
(BTW,in the long history of Shakespeare criticism, I can't recall a single critic who accused Shakespeare for making Hamlet suffer so much. For centuries the audience has experienced aesthetic pleasure in his
suffering,
and some would probably call it beautiful.)
Except Shakespeare never wrote a beat-up-and-rape-Hamlet scene :).
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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-
Fiona Moore -
littles＠lycos.co.uk -
Natasa Tucev -
Stephen Date -
Una McCormack