Shane said: "Slash, however mild, only works if you take it out of the context of the series, cause it's not canon. I think there's been a couple of threads on the subject of the distortion of the programme lately which have proved this more or less conclusively."
The main point of fan fiction is to read between the lines and take the show places where it didn't go on TV. Just repeating what was on TV would be pointless, therefore any fan fiction is not canon by definition, but that doesn't mean it is not in the context of the show. One area that fan fiction looks at often is possible relationships between the characters above and beyond what we see on screen, and there is just as much evidence for homosexual as there is for heterosexual relationships between the characters, that is very little with some hints.
Undoubtedly there is a strong tension between Blake and Avon which can be and is by some interpreted as having a sexual element. Remember, we are to my knowledge given no clues at all to Blake's sexuality during the show. We know Avon is attracted to women, but that doesn't mean he isn't also attracted to men. The same as said for Avon can also be said for Gan, Tarrant and Vila. I don't think Jenna, Cally or Soolin give any hints of their sexuality, but Dayna does show she likes men sexually, but again no evidence that this is exclusive.
I'm sorry if this reraises some of the points already discussed on this thread, but I've been a little preoccupied these past few weeks and so haven't been following things properly. But I'm back now.
-- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption
Steve said:
The main point of fan fiction is to read between the lines and take the
show
places where it didn't go on TV. Just repeating what was on TV would be
pointless,
therefore any fan fiction is not canon by definition, but that doesn't
mean it is
not in the context of the show. One area that fan fiction looks at often
is
possible relationships between the characters above and beyond what we see
on
screen, and there is just as much evidence for homosexual as there is for heterosexual relationships between the characters, that is very little
with some
hints.
Hear, hear! I would also like to refer to Henry Jenkins' essay "Out of the Closet and Into the Universe," in Tulloch & Jenkins, "Science Fiction Audiences," which makes many interesting points about media representation of future sexualities.
-(Y)
--- Steve Rogerson steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk wrote>
The main point of fan fiction is to read
between the lines and take the show places where it didn't go on TV.
Just
repeating what was on TV would be pointless, therefore any fan fiction is not canon by definition, but that doesn't mean it is not in the context of the show.
Definitely true :).
One area that
fan fiction looks at often is possible relationships between the characters above and beyond what we see on screen,
Fair enough.
and there is just as much evidence for
homosexual as there is for heterosexual relationships between the characters,
Now there's where I would disagree with you, I'm afraid. There is some evidence for heterosexual relationships/feelings/leanings between some of the principal characters on B7. There is no evidence of homosexual ones for these characters.
Now, this can't be because of homophobia or of the filmic conventions of the 1970s (the decade, may I remind you, that brought us "Gangsters" and "The Naked Civil Servant," both programmes with strong gay characters if not leads), as the same team have no problem whatsoever with portraying Carnell, Egrorian and Krantor as bisexual. Therefore, it would have to be because these feelings simply *are not there.*
In various interviews over the years Chris Boucher, Terry Nation, Paul Darrow, Gareth Thomas etc. have been asked whether any of the characters were intended at *any* point to show homosexual leanings. They have all denied it. In other words, to say that these characters were gay or bisexual is to say that the series' creator, script editor and principal actors have no say in their own series. In which case we may as well give up viewing the series entirely.
Undoubtedly there is a strong tension between Blake and Avon which can be and is by some interpreted as having a sexual element.
I would challenge you to find a single scene in, for instance, Series 1, which supports this interpretation. Any of the scenes which are commonly held up as showing "gay subtext" can only be interpreted as such when divorced entirely from their contexts.
Remember, we are to my knowledge
given no clues at all to Blake's sexuality during the show.
Erm, I think both "Bounty" and "Hostage" would suggest certain leanings towards the heterosexual :).
We know Avon is
attracted to women, but that doesn't mean he isn't also attracted to men.
Again, we see no evidence of this. As a contrast: Carnell flirts outrageously with Servalan, but then also flirts with her aide. Avon frequently shows signs of attraction to women; nowhere does he show similar feelings towards a man. Furthermore, in "Rescue," we get the scene where Dorian gives Avon a decidedly "cruisy" look, after making a remark about his fondness for indulging any pleasure, to which Avon responds with "you really are insane, aren't you?" A perfect opportunity for Avon to show his colours-- and what he shows is quite the opposite.
The same
as said for Avon can also be said for Gan, Tarrant and Vila.
All of whom actually make declarations at various times in the series supporting their heterosexuality. Now, some people have argued that this doesn't mean they aren't hiding their gay feelings under a heterosexual veneer. But again, it is quite easy for a competent actor to play this (e.g. in the film "American Beauty"). I reiterate: if the characters had been intended by their creators to have gay leanings, this could easily have been suggested, but it wasn't.
I don't think Jenna, Cally or Soolin give any hints of their sexuality
Jenna's old flame in "Bounty" aside, she frequently acts jealous towards Blake (again, "Bounty" and "Hostage" providing good examples). Soolin kisses Dorian. Cally... well, during and after the events of "Children of Auron" and "Sarcophagus" she seems to feel some attraction towards Avon (and in fact the alien possessing her in the latter directly states that Cally has feelings for Avon), and it's worth bearing in mind that "Animals" was originally written for her.
, but Dayna does show she likes
men sexually, but again no evidence that this is exclusive.
But there is no evidence the other way. And where there's some evidence for one way, and no evidence for the other way, this would rather suggest that the character's preferences lie in the former direction. A negative doesn't make a positive.
Thing is, there is a bit of a line between "taking the show into places never explored on TV" and sheer exercises of imagination. Which again, are fine-- as exercises of imagination. To take a nonsexual example: if you're going to write a B7 story in the style of a "Carry On" film, this can be a quite clever and fun thing to read. If, however, you start insisting that the series on which the story was based was a camp comedy, then I think not only the point, but the whole effectiveness of the story, have been lost.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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In message 20010304011223.39010.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com, Fiona Moore nydersdyner@yahoo.co.uk writes
Now there's where I would disagree with you, I'm afraid. There is some evidence for heterosexual relationships/feelings/leanings between some of the principal characters on B7. There is no evidence of homosexual ones for these characters
Regardless of what was intended by those who created the series - if Avon had been played in exactly the same way, but by Pauline rather than Paul, I for one would assume that something was going on between Avon and Blake that involved more than agape or phileo. Nowadays I see it in canon as it was played, although I don't see them as having ever done anything about it. And my conversion to "A/B can be seen in canon" was partly as a result of someone asking me what I'd have thought about certain scenes had Avon been played in exactly the same manner, but by a woman.
Hi,
I�m quite new here (well, I�ve been lurking for a while) but this really caught my eye and I think needs replying to. Feel free to contradict or challenge me!
Slash, however mild, only works if you take it out
of the
context of the series, cause it's not canon.
I'm sure that the _Liberator_ had bathrooms and that its crew ate meals. We don't see either of these on
screen either.
Shane Little(?)
I do detect a slight movement of goalposts here...
the two functions
you're talking about are necessary biological ones.
We can take it as > read that the characters eat and go to the loo without it impacting
much on their lives otherwise (except in certain
circumstances :)...)
However, having sex is a bit different. It's hard
to have sex with
someone and then go about your daily business with
that person as if > nothing had ever happened between you.
I think that�s a very good point, but another important thing to consider is dramatic convention. It�s basic dramatic convention that you only show what�s relevant. How often Tarrant visits the lavatory is only relevant in specific story circumstances, so you leave it out unless those specific circumstances arise (Tarrant is possessed by an alien that doesn�t go to the loo and the crew notice he�s not been there in six weeks, or whatever..) but it is safe to assume that he, and all the other characters eat and excrete on a regular basis. Because that�s what humans do.
With sex between characters, this is something that you don�t assume is happening unless you are told otherwise. Because people don�t have sex with everyone they know. So if it�s happening it is relevant. So you show it. Or at least establish it.
You don�t need to show a couple constantly having sex because if you establish they�re a couple then it comes under the same kind of convention territory as �going to the loo�, (Like, Jonathan and Jennifer Hart) but if you�re showing the process of two people becoming a couple (Like, Riley and Buffy, or Xander and Anya, or Vila and Kerrill whoever) dramatic convention dictates that you climax the illustration of that process with the characters kissing and/or a sex scene.
As Blake and Avon don�t know one another before the series starts, if the series were about �them as couple� then the process of them becoming one would be illustrated, reaching it�s zenith with a kiss/sex scene.
To not do so would be a clear disregard of dramatic conventions which �Blake�s 7� otherwise adheres to.
Surely?
'Kingpin' wilsonfisk2@yahoo.com
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Julia wrote:
In message <20010304011223.39010. qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com>, Fiona Moore nydersdyner@yahoo.co.uk writes
Now there's where I would disagree with you,
I'm
afraid. There is some evidence for
heterosexual
relationships/feelings/leanings between some
of the
principal characters on B7. There is no
evidence of
homosexual ones for these characters
Regardless of what was intended by those who created the series - if Avon had been played in exactly the same way, but by Pauline rather than Paul, I for one would assume that something was going on between Avon and Blake
Point one: since that never happened, it's a bit spurious to argue about it.
Point two: taking it up for the sake of argument anyway, it's quite conceivable that if the character _had_ been a straight woman, there would have been a sexual undertone to her relationship with Blake. As it stood, however, it was two straight men, not a straight man and a straight woman.
As for Avon and Blake: my own gaydar, I'm sorry to say, registers nary a blip.
Shane
"Avon, you were my only friend..." --Blake
In message 6164599.983750190824.JavaMail.root@crowe.unimessage.net, littles@lycos.co.uk writes
Point two: taking it up for the sake of argument anyway, it's quite conceivable that if the character _had_ been a straight woman, there would have been a sexual undertone to her relationship with Blake. As it stood, however, it was two straight men, not a straight man and a straight woman.
Point one - I did not specify that Avon be played as a *straight* woman. Interesting how you assume that I did...
Point two - "It was two straight men, therefore it cannot possibly be a sexual relationship between them, therefore it was two straight men." This is called "arguing in a circle".
Point three - you may be gay or bi. That does not give you a monopoly on gaydar. Some of those who do see unresolved sexual tension between Blake and Avon (or any other B7 slash pairing, for that matter) are gay or bi - and some of them are as insistent that it's really there, as you are insistent that it's all in the imagination of slash fans.
--- Julia Jones julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk wrote: > In message
6164599.983750190824.JavaMail.root@crowe.unimessage.net,
littles@lycos.co.uk writes
Point two: taking it up for the sake of argument
anyway, it's quite conceivable
that if the character _had_ been a straight woman,
there would have been a
sexual undertone to her relationship with Blake. As
it stood, however, it was
two straight men, not a straight man and a straight
woman.
Point one - I did not specify that Avon be played as a *straight* woman. Interesting how you assume that I did...
Your actual words were:
if Avon had been played in exactly the same way,
but by Pauline rather than Paul, I for one would assume that something was going on between Avon and Blake<<
Reading that, one can only assume that you were referring to a straight woman, otherwise, why should you see something going on between them? There is really nothing 'interesting' about that assumption, based on your actual words it's a perfectly normal one.
Some of those who do see unresolved sexual tension between Blake and Avon (or any other B7 slash pairing, for that matter) are gay or bi
- and some of them are as insistent that it's really
there, as you are insistent that it's all in the imagination of slash fans.
Isn't it just possible that what some members of the gay community are really seeing is their own fervent wish that this was so? After all, from what I have seen, the most common slash stories are A/B. These are strong characters, many of us admire qualities present in these men, so much so, that we see things that are simply not there. Many women would love to be with their idealised versions of Avon and Blake and I imagine the same applies to the gay community, so they see things between the two characters which are simply not so.
===== Cheryl. (My favourite 'Blake's 7' moment) What a fiasco! We could take over the ship you said, if I did my bit. Well, I did my bit, and what happened? Your 'troops' bumble around looking for someone to surrender to, and when they've succeeded, You, follow suit! (Avon to Blake. "Spacefall")
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In message 20010305151252.24643.qmail@web12405.mail.yahoo.com, Cheryl _ avonsgirl@yahoo.com.au writes
Reading that, one can only assume that you were referring to a straight woman, otherwise, why should you see something going on between them?
That was rather my point - that people are making assumptions about the sexual orientation, and hence the existence or not of sexual attraction, based on the gender of the characters in the proposed pairing, and not on the interaction between them.
--- Julia Jones julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk wrote: > In message
20010305151252.24643.qmail@web12405.mail.yahoo.com,
Cheryl _ avonsgirl@yahoo.com.au writes
Reading that, one can only assume that you were referring to a straight woman, otherwise, why
should
you see something going on between them?
That was rather my point - that people are making assumptions about the sexual orientation, and hence the existence or not of sexual attraction, based on the gender of the characters in the proposed pairing, and not on the interaction between them.
I am not as green as I'm cabbage looking Julia, I did take note of the loaded suggestion, which is why I said there was nothing interesting about the assumption(which has not been noted in your reference to my quote) and also if you will note, I did say "why should *you* see something..." Paul or Pauline, I see someone who is intrigued by a man and his gritty determination due to his ideals, and this intrigued man feels a sense of justification for the existence of man in the face of this sort of man(the reason why he saves him so often IMO)I have never considered the possibility that these two love each other sexually or platonically, not even brotherly(yes, I know, also platonic but a different feel than to friendship). I do believe that what developed between the two men was a tremendous sense of comradeship. I see Avon as believing that the existence of Blake is worthwhile, which is why he was so thrown by the thought of betrayal in the final episode.
===== Cheryl. (My favourite 'Blake's 7' moment) What a fiasco! We could take over the ship you said, if I did my bit. Well, I did my bit, and what happened? Your 'troops' bumble around looking for someone to surrender to, and when they've succeeded, You, follow suit! (Avon to Blake. "Spacefall")
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Julia wrote:
In message 6164599.983750190824.JavaMail.root@crowe.unimessage.net, littles@lycos.co.uk writes
Point two: taking it up for the sake of argument anyway, it's quite
conceivable
that if the character _had_ been a straight woman, there would have been
a
sexual undertone to her relationship with Blake. As it stood, however, it
was
two straight men, not a straight man and a straight woman.
Point one - I did not specify that Avon be played as a *straight* woman. Interesting how you assume that I did...
Actually, I did because you said that had Avon been played by a woman, you would have no problem assuming a sexual relationship between the two, which presupposes that the woman must be straight.
Point two - "It was two straight men, therefore it cannot possibly be a sexual relationship between them, therefore it was two straight men." This is called "arguing in a circle".
Not quite. It was actually "It was two straight men, therefore it cannot possibly be a sexual relationship between them." Full stop. This is called arguing in a straight (pardon the pun) line.
Point three - you may be gay or bi. That does not give you a monopoly on gaydar. Some of those who do see unresolved sexual tension between Blake and Avon (or any other B7 slash pairing, for that matter) are gay or bi
- and some of them are as insistent that it's really there, as you are
insistent that it's all in the imagination of slash fans.
Hey, gaydar's not everything. Leaving gaydar to one side and concentrating totally on onscreen evidence, it still reads as straight.
But FWIW, I personally have yet to meet a gay or bi man who sees it. And, furthermore, the gay relationships I've read in the slash I've seen bear absolutely no resemblance to any gay relationship I know of; they read more like straight relationships with a sex change on the part of one of the characters.
Shane
"Avon, you were my only friend..." --Blake
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Cheryl _ -
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Julia Jones -
littles＠lycos.co.uk -
Steve Rogerson -
Wilson Fisk