Shane said: "a character on a TV show' also includes unlikely lust objects such as Orac and Giroc"
You really must read more fanfic Shane. Orac's ended up in some quite juicy stories.
-- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
Redemption 03, 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent The 25th Anniversary Blake's 7 Convention The 10th Anniversary Babylon 5 Convention http://www.smof.com/redemption
--- Steve Rogerson steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk wrote: > Shane said: "a character on a TV show' also includes unlikely lust objects such as Orac and Giroc"
You really must read more fanfic Shane. Orac's ended up in some quite juicy stories.
Also in another post:
And what about poor old Og? I've had him shagging
Dayna, Gan and Jarriere in my stories.<<<
Does this possibly explain why some journos take the piss?
How many B7 fans are actually interested in the original concept of the show and it's characters? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a little light entertainment but this is just plain - Ugh.
===== Cheryl. (My favourite 'Blake's 7' moment) What a fiasco! We could take over the ship you said, if I did my bit. Well, I did my bit, and what happened? Your 'troops' bumble around looking for someone to surrender to, and when they've succeeded, You, follow suit! (Avon to Blake. "Spacefall")
_____________________________________________________________________________ http://calendar.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Calendar - Access your appointments and meetings online.
Cheryl wrote:
--- Steve Rogerson steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk wrote: > Shane said: "a character on a TV show' also includes unlikely lust objects such as Orac and Giroc"
You really must read more fanfic Shane. Orac's ended up in some quite juicy stories.
Also in another post:
And what about poor old Og? I've had him shagging
Dayna, Gan and Jarriere in my stories.<<<
Does this possibly explain why some journos take the piss?
How many B7 fans are actually interested in the original concept of the show and it's characters? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a little light entertainment but this is just plain - Ugh.
You should read Steve's zine, Cheryl. It's just fab.
Una
--- Una McCormack una@qresearch.org.uk wrote: > >
You should read Steve's zine, Cheryl. It's just fab.
I do appreciate the recommendation Una, I have actually read a few samples of slash now - in fact I have just finished reading one (not sure about the ethics involved in citing titles so I won't)I honestly read each story with an open mind - it's not as closed as it may sometimes come across as - so far, in all honesty - I have either not enjoyed the story at all or I have (as in the abovementioned story) really been enjoying it - until the sex enters the picture, it's usually crudely outlined and sometimes quite intrusive...for me, the story I have just read was a wonderful idea and the author possesses a fine writing style - Avon suffers from amnesia after saving Blake - the parts of his life which shaped his personality have been wiped and we are left with a much more approachable man (the author manages to do this but still keeps Avon recognisable) he is then faced with discovering the man that he was - I was enthralled - until it changed direction into the story it was designed to be - for me, it then ceased to explore and just shuddered to a rather abrupt end.
There was one that I thoroughly enjoyed - but this was meant to be humorous - it was a short piece where Jenna is trying to coax Avon into spending some time with her by pleading with him through his cabin door - he tries everything to get rid of her and nothing works until he tells her he's gay......it was funny.
I guess it comes down to personal tastes - mine don't lean too far in this direction and not at all in Ogs case.
===== Cheryl. (My favourite 'Blake's 7' moment) What a fiasco! We could take over the ship you said, if I did my bit. Well, I did my bit, and what happened? Your 'troops' bumble around looking for someone to surrender to, and when they've succeeded, You, follow suit! (Avon to Blake. "Spacefall")
_____________________________________________________________________________ http://calendar.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Calendar - Access your appointments and meetings online.
Cheryl wrote:
--- Una McCormack una@qresearch.org.uk wrote: > >
You should read Steve's zine, Cheryl. It's just fab.
I do appreciate the recommendation Una, I have actually read a few samples of slash now - in fact I have just finished reading one (not sure about the ethics involved in citing titles so I won't)I honestly read each story with an open mind -
<snip>
I guess it comes down to personal tastes - mine don't lean too far in this direction and not at all in Ogs case.
I'm famously not a slash reader or writer. But Steve and Paula's zine is something quite special. It's not for the faint of heart, however.
Una
On Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 11:11:53PM +1100, Cheryl _ wrote:
I honestly read each story with an open mind - it's not as closed as it may sometimes come across as - so far, in all honesty - I have either not enjoyed the story at all or I have (as in the abovementioned story) really been enjoying it - until the sex enters the picture, it's usually crudely outlined and sometimes quite intrusive...
How true... (sigh) Me, coming from a slightly different angle -- because I don't like reading Adult either; for hetsmut stories I just wish they could write the story without the sex! I have gone so far as to, twice, get zines which were reccommended to me, which happened to be Adult, get someone to go through and censor all the sex bits for me beforehand, and then read the story. (My attitude towards hetsmut is that I'd rather it stayed privately in the bedroom without me watching it) Mindfire was one of them -- a great story, IMHO, which would have been even better without the sex (grin) (And some aspects of that I didn't like anyway, even when I didn't read the actual scenes... the Auron idea of group-marriage... (shakes head))
for me, the story I have just read was a wonderful idea and the author possesses a fine writing style - Avon suffers from amnesia after saving Blake - the parts of his life which shaped his personality have been wiped and we are left with a much more approachable man (the author manages to do this but still keeps Avon recognisable) he is then faced with discovering the man that he was
- I was enthralled -
It does, indeed, sound enthralling, and a very interesting plot...
until it changed direction into the story it was designed to be - for me, it then ceased to explore and just shuddered to a rather abrupt end.
For me, that sounds like a good story completely ruined by making it slash! (wry smile) (wails) Why does everything have to be about sex? So far as I can tell, the story you describe above, could have been written as a cracking good gen story... with friendship instead of sex. Philia, as someone said in a previous thread. Maybe even agape. Just toss the eros and I'll be happy.
To refine: I find slash stories more upsetting than hetsmut because of the moral issue, even though I don't like reading either one; for me, het sex out of wedlock is, while not good, not half as sinful as gay sex. (Particularly if the het sex is monogamous; at least they're being faithful...) So it upsets me to see characters I admire suddenly having gay sex. That's where my compass is set, and if that upsets anyone, then go ahead and call me insulting names if it makes you feel better.
"toss the eros..." Hmmm... I wonder what a good slash story would be like if someone went and rewrote it as a Sime~Gen story, with one party Sime and the other Gen...
Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- If they outlaw Guns, can we use Swords? -- found by RER7691@TNTECH.EDU (DEATH ANGEL)
From: Kathryn Andersen kat@foobox.net
To refine: I find slash stories more upsetting than hetsmut because of the moral issue, even though I don't like reading either one; for me, het sex out of wedlock is, while not good, not half as sinful as gay sex. (Particularly if the het sex is monogamous; at least they're being faithful...) So it upsets me to see characters I admire suddenly having gay sex. That's where my compass is set, and if that upsets anyone, then go ahead and call me insulting names if it makes you feel better.
But to reiterate the question I put at Redemption: Surely there are worse things than two characters having gay sex? Suppose defenceless civilians were massacred by Federation troops - would that upset you just as much if it happened in a (gen) story? Suppose two original characters in a story were having a relationship (gay, or unmarried straight)? Is it what gets done that squicks you, or who does it?
Neil
Neil Faulkner wrote:
But to reiterate the question I put at Redemption: Surely there are worse things than two characters having gay sex? Suppose defenceless civilians were massacred by Federation troops - would that upset you just as much if it happened in a (gen) story? Suppose two original characters in a story were having a relationship (gay, or unmarried straight)? Is it what gets done that squicks you, or who does it?
Just a guess, but ISTM that if there are two actions that one sees as wrong, then it is less disturbing to see one that is clearly presented as wrong (massacre) than something that one believes is wrong being presented as desirable (slash).
IOW, the bad guys get to be bad; it's a convention of fiction.
Mistral
On Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 08:59:54AM -0800, Mistral wrote:
Neil Faulkner wrote:
But to reiterate the question I put at Redemption: Surely there are worse things than two characters having gay sex? Suppose defenceless civilians were massacred by Federation troops - would that upset you just as much if it happened in a (gen) story? Suppose two original characters in a story were having a relationship (gay, or unmarried straight)? Is it what gets done that squicks you, or who does it?
Just a guess, but ISTM that if there are two actions that one sees as wrong, then it is less disturbing to see one that is clearly presented as wrong (massacre) than something that one believes is wrong being presented as desirable (slash).
IOW, the bad guys get to be bad; it's a convention of fiction.
What she said. Who does it.
If characters I respect and like are made by the author to do something very wrong, and it is treated as something right, then I hate what the author has done to the characters. It's character assassination at the least. (*)
If Travis massacres civilians, that just shows he's a bad guy. If Avon massacres civilians, and the author treats it as normal and not bad, then I'd get durned annoyed at that author.
Just like the UltraViolence in _A Clockwork Orange_ would upset me -- because the violence is not treated as bad.
And before you start saying "what about all the people Blake et al have killed?" -- that's different because they're killing military soldiers in a war. And even that is treated with ambiguity -- remember Blake's second thoughts before Star One? That if they don't win, then all they've done before is just senseless killing and destruction.
(*) Oddly enough, Avon's bisexuality in _The Log Of The Hellhound_ didn't upset me (though I would have preferred it wasn't there), because I figured he was psychologically forced into it by all the sexual torture that Servalan put him through, and he was just on the rebound, so to speak. i.e. he wasn't "really" bi... (poor tormented Avon... (sigh))
I am really annoyed with the creators of the Buffyverse for making Willow a lesbian.
Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "There isn't a volcano alive that would dare to swallow Avon... he's cold enough to put out the fire anyway." -- Vila Restal (Blake's 7: Volcano [C3])
Kathryn said:
If characters I respect and like are made by the author to do something very wrong, and it is treated as something right, then I hate what the author has done to the characters. It's character assassination at the least. (*)
But you're assuming that slash writers agree with you that non-marital sex is wrong and that fornication is a more serious sin if same-sex activities are involved.
I am really annoyed with the creators of the Buffyverse for making Willow a lesbian.
I think it's great. I'm not sure that Willow isn't just an LUG (Lesbian Until Graduation) though--I suspect she's going to marry Giles eventually.
-(Y)
On Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 10:24:44AM -0500, Dana Shilling wrote:
Kathryn said:
If characters I respect and like are made by the author to do something very wrong, and it is treated as something right, then I hate what the author has done to the characters. It's character assassination at the least. (*)
But you're assuming that slash writers agree with you that non-marital sex is wrong and that fornication is a more serious sin if same-sex activities are involved.
No, I'm not assuming that at all. Of *course* slash writers don't think that it's wrong. That's why they're portraying it as right. Why would they portray it as right if they thought it was wrong?
(scratches head in puzzlement)
Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Blake: Prognostication? Voice: Rapid deterioration to terminal condition. Blake: Recommendation. Voice: Immediate investagative surgery. Vila: So. If we don't get him treatment, he'll be a vegetable. Jenna: Or die. (Blake's 7: Breakdown [A10])
Kathryn mused thus:
No, I'm not assuming that at all. Of *course* slash writers don't think that it's wrong. That's why they're portraying it as right. Why would they portray it as right if they thought it was wrong?
(scratches head in puzzlement)
Same reason any writer might do so - for the purposes of the fiction they were writing at the time. I imagine this happens a huge amount in the mainstream markets, particularly amid screen and script writers.
(note: I'm not saying that that's what slash writers are doing - just saying that it could happen)
steve
From: Kathryn Andersen kat@foobox.net
If characters I respect and like are made by the author to do something very wrong, and it is treated as something right, then I hate what the author has done to the characters. It's character assassination at the least.
I can't really answer that in terms of slash, since homosexuality doesn't really bother me all that much. But there are things that I consider to be very wrong yet are practiced daily by many, many people, probably including most of the Lyst. As far as I'm concerned, eating dead animals when your survival isn't on the line is Wrong, period. No argument, no compromise.
But if Avon tucks into a steak, or Cally munches on a bit of chicken, I can hardly call it character assassination. People do these things, and I just have to accept it. If I object to the spit-roasted rabbit in 'Blake' (and I do), it's not because Blake eats it, it's because a real life rabbit had to be killed to provide the prop. Likewise the squirrel in Rumours.
Admittedly this is not a direct parallel with Kathryn's position. Eating meat is socially sanctioned in a way that homosexuality is not, or at least not yet. Nor can I cite any higher authority to validate the proscriptions I would most certainly enforce if it were in my power to do so. And, of course, there is no body of fanfic that celebrates carnivorous inclinations. But taking Kathryn as quoted above, the analogy does stand.
Neil
At 00:12 20-3-01 +0000, Steve Rogerson wrote:
Shane said: "a character on a TV show' also includes unlikely lust objects such as Orac and Giroc"
You really must read more fanfic Shane. Orac's ended up in some quite juicy stories.
And Giroc hasn't? You must have been sleeping on the job, Steve. Maybe you could make a nice pairing with Og and Brian.
Jacqueline
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Cheryl _ -
Dana Shilling -
Jacqueline Thijsen -
Kathryn Andersen -
Mistral -
Neil Faulkner -
Steve Kilbane -
Steve Rogerson -
Una McCormack