In a message dated 3/27/01 1:27:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, rilliara@juno.com writes:
<< And then there's all that "Give me liberty or give me death" stuff that I couldn't help absorbing as a kid (hey, it was in the air). The feeling that those things need to be said. >>
The concept of empathy really seems to be eluding some members of this list. I don't know how I can make it any plainer than I already have. A number of people certainly didn't like it when I freely expressed *my* opinion of *their* religion... even though it is my true opinion and I meant no personal attack on them on at all. Hey, I felt it "needed to be said" because it's the way I feel. If it's okay for others to attack *my* beliefs and traditions and lifestyle openly on the list, why do they feel that they are immune from hearing my thoughts on *their* beliefs and traditions and lifestyle in return? You can say anything you darn well please and I'll stand up for your "right" to do so. But please don't act all put out and surprised when you receive an answer IN KIND. I believe in treating people the way they have asked me to treat them. And I don't believe in letting people insult my way of life with impunity. I don't have to justify my existence to anyone and I don't have to defend my way of life. But if people here are going to freely attack an entire group of people I'll be darned if I'm just going to sit back and let them do it without saying anything.
Some folks said that *they* weren't offended by Kathryn's original post because she said it all so "politely". So, I went back and reread the post (reproduced below) just to see if I was completely out of line. Nope. I'm just as offended at 2nd and 3rd readings. I don't think it's polite at all to blithely inform a large list of Blakes 7 fans that adultery (of Avon and Anna) isn't half so bothersome as gay sex because, of course, gay sex is soooo much more sinful.
Annie
Kathryn said (in 2 separate posts):
If characters I respect and like are made by the author to do something very wrong, and it is treated as something right, then I hate what the author has done to the characters. It's character assassination at the least. (*)
To refine: I find slash stories more upsetting than hetsmut because of the moral issue, even though I don't like reading either one; for me, het sex out of wedlock is, while not good, not half as sinful as gay sex. (Particularly if the het sex is monogamous; at least they're being faithful...) So it upsets me to see characters I admire suddenly having gay sex. That's where my compass is set, and if that upsets anyone, then go ahead and call me insulting names if it makes you feel better.
Ashton7@aol.com wrote:
The concept of empathy really seems to be eluding some members of this list. I don't know how I can make it any plainer than I already have. A number of people certainly didn't like it when I freely expressed *my* opinion of *their* religion... even though it is my true opinion and I meant no personal attack on them on at all. Hey, I felt it "needed to be said" because it's the way I feel. If it's okay for others to attack *my* beliefs and traditions and lifestyle openly on the list, why do they feel that they are immune from hearing my thoughts on *their* beliefs and traditions and lifestyle in return? You can say anything you darn well please and I'll stand up for your "right" to do so. But please don't act all put out and surprised when you receive an answer IN KIND.
Well, not meaning to offend, but I am genuinely puzzled - do you not find there to be a difference between saying an _action_ is wrong, and saying a _person_ or group of people is sick? Because every time this sort of issue comes up, it just floors me. We all do things that other people think are wrong. If I cheated on my income tax, I'd consider that I'd done something immoral; I certainly wouldn't consider that I was sick. Those two concepts are poles apart to me.
As I sit here eating my turkey sandwich and reading my lyst mail, I come across a post from Neil. Now, I know Neil thinks it's immoral for me to eat my turkey sandwich - but I don't assume that he thinks I'm a sick and evil person because of it. He might, but I'm not going to jump to that conclusion, because it isn't productive, fair, or kind; and if I did jump to that conclusion, my upset would be my own doing, not his.
Mistral
From: Mistral mistral@centurytel.net
As I sit here eating my turkey sandwich and reading my lyst mail, I come across a post from Neil. Now, I know Neil thinks it's immoral for me to eat my turkey sandwich - but I don't assume that he thinks I'm a sick and evil person because of it.
No, of course not. You don't have to eat turkey to be a sick and evil person:)
What I actually believe is that it is ethically (not morally) unjustifiable for turkeys to be killed in order to stuff a sandwich. (With the usual special case caveats - if it was a choice between Turkey Sandwich or Death
Neil Faulkner wrote:
From: Mistral mistral@centurytel.net
As I sit here eating my turkey sandwich and reading my lyst mail, I come across a post from Neil. Now, I know Neil thinks it's immoral for me to eat my turkey sandwich - but I don't assume that he thinks I'm a sick and evil person because of it.
No, of course not. You don't have to eat turkey to be a sick and evil person:)
Thank you for enabling me to win my bet with myself ;-)
What I actually believe is that it is ethically (not morally) unjustifiable for turkeys to be killed in order to stuff a sandwich.
Ah. My deepest apologies for having misrepresented you. 'Twas a fault unwilling.
(With the usual special case caveats - if it was a choice between Turkey Sandwich or Death
From Starvation, I'd probably fight you for it.)
Well, perhaps I can qualify for a special case then. I did _want_ to be a vegetarian, but due to several food allergies and insulin resistance, I've found it impossible to get adequate protein to safeguard my health without eating meat.
If it were somehow possible to stuff the sandwich without killing a turkey, I might very well ask you to make two sandwiches, one for you and one for me. I like the taste of turkey, even though I refuse to eat it.
So then you would find vat-grown meat acceptable, as long as whatever original material was required to start the growth didn't require killing the animal?
And how would you feel about that plant life on Centero with the intelligence rating?
Mistral
From: Mistral mistral@centurytel.net
So then you would find vat-grown meat acceptable, as long as whatever original material was required to start the growth didn't require killing the animal?
Absolutely. In fact this is something I 've brought into someof my fiction. In Wit and Wisdom (Star 3) Travis has a meal of vat-cultured beef and veggies. A further elaboration might be to have it such that 'real' meat from living animals has acquired luxury status. I can well imagine Servalan extolling its superiority over the cultured stuff, possibly even imputing it with quasi-mystic powers.
And how would you feel about that plant life on Centero with the intelligence rating?
What, Vila?
Neil
--- Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net wrote:
Absolutely. In fact this is something I 've brought into someof my fiction. In Wit and Wisdom (Star 3) Travis has a meal of vat-cultured beef and veggies. A further elaboration might be to have it such that 'real' meat from living animals has acquired luxury status. I can well imagine Servalan extolling its superiority over the cultured stuff, possibly even imputing it with quasi-mystic powers.
I can see it now:
Jarriere: Why did you have the cook shot Madam ? Servalan: He served Tofu Jarriere: I see Servalan: Do you see, Jarriere ? Do you really see ? Jarriere: (nodding) No Servalan: My political success has been based on three things. My dress sense, my consummate ruthlessness and my partiality for Pate de foie gras. Obviously the cook was a traitor. Jarriere: You can't trust anyone these days can you.
Or Servalan at a resturaunt with Jarvik, Shad and Dastor:
Servalan: I'll have steak Waiter: What about the vegetables ? Servalan: Oh, they'll have steak too.
On a related subject, the alien race in Iain M. Bank's book "Excession" absolutely refused to eat vat grown meat on the grounds that there was no point in eating the stuff if something hadn't suffered for it.
I know, I'm wittering.
Stephen.
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Neil said:
In fact this is something I 've brought
into someof my fiction. In Wit and Wisdom (Star 3) Travis has a meal of vat-cultured beef and veggies. A further elaboration might be to have it such that 'real' meat from living animals has acquired luxury status.
Do Mutoids Dream of Electric Sheep?
-(Y)
From: Dana Shilling dshilling@worldnet.att.net
Neil said:
In fact this is something I 've brought
into someof my fiction. In Wit and Wisdom (Star 3) Travis has a meal of vat-cultured beef and veggies. A further elaboration might be to have it such that 'real' meat from living animals has acquired luxury status.
Do Mutoids Dream of Electric Sheep?
Never read it. But if the mighty PKD thought of it first, I'm just grateful to trudge humbly in his shadow.
Neil
Stephen Date wrote:
Jarriere: Why did you have the cook shot Madam ? Servalan: He served Tofu Jarriere: I see Servalan: Do you see, Jarriere ? Do you really see ? Jarriere: (nodding) No
I had to resist the temptation to quote the whole post, but if this is what you call wittering, please witter some more!
Mistral
Stephen wrote:
Jarriere: Why did you have the cook shot Madam ? Servalan: He served Tofu Jarriere: I see Servalan: Do you see, Jarriere ? Do you really see ? Jarriere: (nodding) No Servalan: My political success has been based on three things. My dress sense, my consummate ruthlessness and my partiality for Pate de foie gras. Obviously the cook was a traitor. Jarriere: You can't trust anyone these days can you.
I know, I'm wittering.
[Frantic applause]
And my favourite food too... I'm going to cook some for Sunday lunch.
Keep it up, quick!
--- Mistral mistral@centurytel.net wrote
And how would you feel about that plant life on Centero with the intelligence rating?
Do they eat Turkey Sandwiches too ?
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