Fiona wrote:
Neil spoke about how some people (himself apparently included) do exclude certain episodes they don't like from
their
own "altercanon."
Interesting why some people choose to exclude certain episodes, or indeed to like others. 'Dawn of the Gods' (which I think was the episode that Neil was excluding?) isn't one of my favourites (in fact I suspect it made it into my 5 least favourites) but I wouldn't see that as a reason to exclude it. I could see two different possible reasons: first, that the Auron background doesn't fit too well with 'Children of Auron', and second, that the science is cringeworthily appalling. However, if one excluded episodes on science grounds, then one would be left with a short canon indeed...
What I found in compiling my least-liked episodes list some time back now is that many, indeed most, B7 episodes have bits that I cringe over. However, nearly all of them also have bits that I enjoy. DotG has some great lines of dialogue here and there, it has some insights into particularly Tarrant's character, and then there are those trousers, I suppose...
I think different people cringe over different things. Personally I really hate the naff monsters and aliens. I find it hard to watch for example, 'The Web', 'Rescue' and 'Moloch', all of which have abundant good points, simply because of this. (In the case of 'Moloch', I hardly even *see* the rest of the episode because of anticipatory cringing over *that* thing.) I also find it hard to watch 'The Way Back', an excellent episode with so many implications for the kind of fanfic I'd like to write, simply 'cos it lacks my favoured character.
For whatever bundle of reasons, one ends up with a highly personal list of favourites and unfavourites, and (we've played this game on FC of late) no-one ever agrees.
I think there's truth in that, but I think there's something more subtle to it, in that in my experience people tend to watch the episodes they like over and over and not watch the ones they don't
like.
So in a sense, while I would include, say, "Stardrive" in the canon, and
if
it came up in the context of a discussion on canon I would use it, I have
in
a sense excluded it from my "altercanon" in that I watch it so little that it would probably be my *last* choice as an example in a discussion. Basically, I think Neil's right but that the same process is often subconscious.
I agree. People tend to see the series in terms of predominantly one axis, be it characters or science fiction or politics or action/adventure or whatever. They are bound to watch more of the episodes that they enjoy, because they feature that axis predominantly, and thus perhaps come to a distorted view of the series as a whole.
In the interests of trying to keep the whole series in mind and developing characterisations for fanfic based on the on-screen versions, I've watched the whole lot twice within the past year, but I must admit, in between the prescribed viewings, the episodes I really like just kept on creeping in (my 'Star One' to 'Animals' ratio is about 5:1).
Tavia
From: Tavia tavia@btinternet.com
Interesting why some people choose to exclude certain episodes, or indeed to like others. 'Dawn of the Gods' (which I think was the episode that
Neil
was excluding?) isn't one of my favourites (in fact I suspect it made it into my 5 least favourites) but I wouldn't see that as a reason to exclude it. I could see two different possible reasons: first, that the Auron background doesn't fit too well with 'Children of Auron', and second, that the science is cringeworthily appalling. However, if one excluded episodes on science grounds, then one would be left with a short canon indeed...
Why pick on DotG? Well, for a start it's got a lacklustre script, with a very flaccid opening - that game of Space Monopoly and vacuous wittering about Newtonian physics. Then there's all the stuff about the legends of the Auronar, which flatly violates my altercanon (where the Auronar are originally from Earth). And all the black hole stuff which seems to be little more than Follett showing us what a marvellous science fiction writer he is because he can regurgitate stuff that ninety per cent of schoolboys know anyway. And those crap vehicles. And the Caliph (non-Islamic, so the script adds racism to its litany of sins). And the Thaarn. And Cally having her mind taken over yet again. And a load of tripe about bald dwarfs. And the general level of boredom pervading the entire episode from start to finish.
No other episode violates the ambient ethos of B7 even half as much as this one. It is not B7 at all, it is the work of a hack writer with skiffy pretensions parasitising the series to get his name on television. I have no qualms whatsoever about excising it from my altercanon. I wouldn't do it with any other episode.
What I found in compiling my least-liked episodes list some time back now is that many, indeed most, B7 episodes have bits that I cringe over. However, nearly all of them also have bits that I enjoy. DotG has some great lines of dialogue here and there, it has some insights into particularly Tarrant's character, and then there are those trousers, I suppose...
None of them are perfect, but some are less perfect than others. Even Star One has some donger moments (like, that alien invasion fleet), but I can forgive limitations of time and budget.
I think different people cringe over different things. Personally I really hate the naff monsters and aliens. I find it hard to watch for example, 'The Web', 'Rescue' and 'Moloch', all of which have abundant good points, simply because of this. (In the case of 'Moloch', I hardly even *see* the rest of the episode because of anticipatory cringing over *that* thing.) I also find it hard to watch 'The Way Back', an excellent episode with so many implications for the kind of fanfic I'd like to write, simply 'cos it lacks my favoured character.
Awww! I had to suffer 16 episodes without mine. Travis fans must be really up against it, especially if they're of the partisan variety. It follows that Jarriere fans are a lost cause, but then we knew that anyway:)
Neil
Neil Faulkner wrote:
It follows that Jarriere fans are a lost cause, but then we knew that anyway:)
No, it just means that we can sort through a bin of oyster shells and find the pearl :)
Mistral member of J.A.D.E.
--- Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net wrote:
Why pick on DotG? Well, for a start it's got a lacklustre script, with a very flaccid opening - that game of Space Monopoly and vacuous wittering about Newtonian physics.
Personally I think the opening works quite well - there's a sense of understated menace. I think the episode is great until they get into the black hole.
I think it was Tavia who said:
I also find it hard to watch 'The Way Back', an
excellent episode with so
many implications for the kind of fanfic I'd like
to write, simply 'cos it
lacks my favoured character.
The trouble is that Blake seems to undergo a complete character change between TWB and Space Fall-- which I suppose might happen given the level of trauma, but still should have gotten at least a minute of screen time. Blake in TWB is a pawn completely at the mercy of events--he doesn't go outside with the deliberate intention of returning to subversive activity, only to hear about his brother and sister (since Ravella and Richie are blackmailing him, they may also have fabricated the story that his family has been killed). He spends the massacre hiding, which is a very natural and believable human reaction but not very Blake-like; his conduct in the rest of the series is nothing if not pro-active. And he tells Ravella that he needs time to think about what she's just said--something he very conspicuously doesn't give Avon in Space Fall. Also TWB is the first and last time Vila seems sinister.
-(Y)
Dana wrote:
Also TWB is the first and last time Vila seems sinister.
Not so - I find him much scarier than Tarrant and Dayna when they interrogate Keiller in Gold. Probably like Terminal, one of those occasions when he realises he is the grown-up and rises to the part.
Stephen wrote:
That's the real crime of this episode. If you're going to use something as spectacular as a black hole, then you should really discover something interesting when you get there, rather than a lugubrious welshman, a bloke in fancy dress and a not very bright alien.
A Scotsman with a big nose, perhaps?
One of my favourite characters in the series is Councillor Joban who only appears for a scene. It's not quantity, it's quality, you know !
He's one of my pets, too, along with Bercol and the divine Rontane.
Neil wrote:
I had to suffer 16 episodes without mine. Travis fans must be really up against it, especially if they're of the partisan variety. It follows that Jarriere fans are a lost cause, but then we knew that anyway:)
We're working on it. The complete rewrite of B7 with 52 appearances by Jarriere will appear... er... in a few years...
And thanks, by the way, for your damn-near comprehensive survey of vision and perception. Saved me a lot of typing time, and you said it much more clearly. (Well, Fiona and I both seemed to agree, so evidently you found a common language.)
Jarriet wrote:
The complete rewrite of B7 with 52 appearances by Jarriere will appear... er... in a few years...
I, for one, am greatly looking forward to it. Perhaps then you could provide 52 Jarriere-based haikus for the website?
Una
In message 008d01c0b8a2$280e1c40$e535fea9@neilfaulkner, Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes
No other episode violates the ambient ethos of B7 even half as much as this one. It is not B7 at all, it is the work of a hack writer with skiffy pretensions parasitising the series to get his name on television. I have no qualms whatsoever about excising it from my altercanon. I wouldn't do it with any other episode.
Dear James is a member of a usenet group I frequent. Fortunately he never asks the membership what they think of his work:-)
He did a radio SF series years ago, which my ex-boss was partial to, and suggested I listen to if I had the chance. It, alas, was one of the goodies that remained on the shelf in the BBC shop the other week - For some reason I couldn't quite bring myself to spend money on it...