"Sally Manton" wrote:

...

This is getting unpleasant again, unfortunately I'm going to have to bail out and will *not* be addressing any reply, but in the interests of clarity:

And I for one do not much like holding online discussions with people who effectively burst out crying as soon as you contradict their points. But in the interests of clarity:

...

Me: <The second instance is an invalid example, IMO,> Jenny: <Is that right?>

I'm sorry? As I said IMO, yes, it's right that it's IMO.

It's very interesting how the IMO is used on this Lyst. Basically it is used to stifle any opinion different to your own. Here's a hypothetical example:

PERSON ONE: IMO, Gan was always kind to animals.

PERSON TWO: Where is the evidence?

PERSON ONE: You never see him kill any and IMO that means he meant them well.

PERSON TWO: But you never see him with animals at all.

PERSON ONE: Look I said IMO okay, and I think you should say IMO as well, because it is just your opinion after all.

PERSON TWO: Eh? There is no evidence to support your statement that "Gan is kind to animals". To say "That's my opinion" is not enough.

PERSON ONE: But IMO there is no evidence to disprove it either. And again please qualify everything you say with "IMO".

PERSON TWO: You have to base things on evidence, you can't just conjure things out of the air and say, it's valid because, "it's my opinion".

PERSON ONE: Yes I can. IMO all interpretations are equally valid.

PERSON TWO: No they aren't.

PERSON ONE: IMO, they are.

PERSON TWO: Based on what?

PERSON ONE: Based on my opinion, IMO.

PERSON TWO: That is totally mad.

PERSON ONE: IMO it isn't.

PERSON TWO: So if I were to say, "Soolin was an android" then that would be valid, as there is no evidence to prove that she was not an android.

PERSON ONE: If you put IMO in front of it, yes.

PERSON TWO: But IMO that isn't far.

PERSON TWO: In your opinion why?

PERSON ONE: Because it means that anything I say is immediately qualified, and although you are doing the same, there are more people on this sight that share your opinion than will, by definition, share my "new" take on a particular scene or character. Therefore, the dominant opinion will always triumph.

PERSON TWO: So what?

PERSON ONE: So what? It means that all debate is stifled. It means that "IMO" is being used as a control device.

PERSON TWO: That's *your interpretation* IMO.

PERSON ONE: ARRRRRGH!!!

...

<Yes, but I don't think it's meant to show stupidity, just Gan's true nature.>

That is *your interpretation*. Other people do not see the evidence the same way.

See above.

...

I think it shows that it moments of stress he acts like any other average human being. Is it accepted that other people do not have to

agree

...

with our interpretation, or is it not?

ARRRRRGH!!! It is accepted that if people are going to put forward an "interpretation," they have to justify it with something more substantial than just "IM bloody O"

...

<Hostage is a dog's dinner of an episode, I'll grant you that. Quite why it's such a mess, I don't know. Time maybe, or perhaps it was a last

minute

...

replacement script. Nation was going to write the last two episodes of series two but then didn't. That must have put a huge last minute strain

on

...

everyone.>

What has that got to do with it?

It means what it says. If the production staff is under stress, more mistakes are going to be made.

If Gan's actions 'show his true nature',

...

Avon's show moments of stupidity. You can't have it both ways.

Please read my whole email before replying. Thank you.

...

<If Avon sent a message to Space Command Headquarters (anonymously remember), it would be logical for Servalan/her staff to send the

nearest

...

pursuit ship to Exbar, which would have rotten there in a very short period of time; Travis would have been dealt with by the time Blake got into in his shiny suit. Unfortunately Servalan herself got interested and decided to come along, which meant a long delay,>

To quote you on other threads, the business about who was sent and how

long

...

they might have been delayed is not in the script.

No, because the author is relying on the audience to have the intelligence to work it out. A smart writer doesn't give his audience everything on a plate. This is why Terry Nation gets mentioned at academic conferences, and none of the hacks working on Farscape do.

Avon was taking a huge

...

and totally unjustified risk with Blake's life

Blake wants to willingly walk into a trap set by Travis, therefore the risk Avon takes isn't unjustified.

- the fact that he then gets

...

upset about it shows he didn't think.

No. It shows that his plan has backfired.

...

<He didn't know Sara was armed.>

You don't know that.

Yes I do. Watch the episode.

The only thing he *does* know is that she's murdered

...

two people, not something that a cautious man should treat lightly. The rest is *your interpretation*.

ARRRRRRRGH!!!!!

(This is beginning to sound awfully familiar).

Yes it is, isn't it? How very strange. I wonder what could be happening?

...

<Where does it say that the gun was in another room? He could have simply fallen asleep in the bath. After all, after the events on Terminal they

all

...

must have been both physically and emotionally exhausted.>

Exhaustion or not, falling asleep in the bath would have been even stupider.

You don't fall asleep in the bath on purpose. You could drown.

...

<Why was Norl's story "incredibly silly"?>

Oh come on. Norl insisted on Vila going down alone - unarmed - with no

way

...

to call for help - and it's made clear that he made damn sure Tarrant didn't get to see or hear anything while he was there. The whole set-up

*screams*

...

set-up.

Vila does not want to go down and has to be bullied by Tarrant. Tarrant, for his part, is also suspicious but says that he has no choice: they need the crystals and the only way they can get them is by accepting their terms, even if that means sacrificing Vila.

CALLY: What's wrong with Vila? TARRANT: I scared him a little. CALLY: That must have been difficult. TARRANT: I had no choice, Cally. We've got to have those crystals for the weaponry system. CALLY: So we do a swap, they give us the crystals, we give them Vila. TARRANT: They only want his help. CALLY: Then why are they insisting that he goes down alone? TARRANT: I don't know, maybe outsiders make them nervous. CALLY: Did you? [Avon enters] TARRANT: Me? Who could be nervous of me? CALLY: Only Vila, it seems. TARRANT: We've no reason to think they'll harm him. AVON: And less reason to care?

...

<Because Gan was not acting like a raging monster and was now calm. She didn't know that he was a psychopathic killer with a hatred of women.>

Neither do we, so that doesn't count.

Yes we do. Watch the bloody episode again!

What we do know is that she knows he

...

tried to kill two members of the crew when the limiter was malfunctioning and it hasn't been fixed.

See above.

She can't know if it's going to malfunction

...

again.

She believes that the restraints are "barbaric" Gan speaks to her kindly. Cally says to him "When the pain became to much for you, you became violent" Gan is not in pain now. He says he's uncomfortable, "I would like to sit up. Please." Cally's heart melts and she releases the restraints goes over the the medical kit and starts to preparing him a power. Seconds later Gan has turned her round and is slowly strangling her. He is smiling as he does it. Cally's *interpretation* is wrong. Gan was not acting violently because he was in pain. I am in pain though, having to point out the blatantly obvious to you.

...

<Because Servalan--who operated the teleport in Terminal--would therefore be able to tell if she was operating the wrong controls and would have

ordered

...

Shad to shoot her if she did anything dodgy.>

What? Sorry, but what has Terminal got to do with it? This is the first time Servalan's been on the ship.

And the last time, before Terminal. So she has to have learned about the teleport controls sometime before Terminal. Therefore, in Harvest.

And - to quote one of your own arguments -

...

since she isn't shown to have learned about the controls beforehand, it didn't happen.

It did happen because she operated them in Terminal.

...

<Anyway the two times people are teleported into space are in S1 and S2, before Dayna joined the crew-- we don't know that she knows how or even that it's possible.>

No one taught the earlier people either.

Avon and Jenna discuss it in Cygnus Alpha:

JENNA: (REFERRING TO THE TELEPORT CONTROLS) Is there maximum range on this?

AVON: Of course. I don't know what it is though.

JENNA: What would happen if you teleported someone beyond the maximum range?

AVON: I imagine that they would appear momentarily in space and then that their atoms would be scattered to the solar winds.

Hey, if you go and watch the episode yourself, you'll see the same scene too.

...

It's sheer common sense.

Not to Jenna; she had to ask Avon.

...

<Why in MoD he left the unsealed box with an incredibly valuable

neutrotope

...

lying around where at the first bump it would fall?> <It was in a sealed padded box in the middle of a table with Gan sat in front of it. It's Gan that lets it drop. Gan again, see?>

If it's sealed, why does it fall open, please?

When reviewing this scene on frame by frame it does appear to open fractionally. The reason? It's a crap prop. There are many things in B7 (in fact in many productions, remember the stormstrooper cracking his head on the door in Star Wars. Or the guard wearing a wristwatch in Ben Hur) that happen but have nothing to do with the script. This is one of them. In the next scene Blake is seen taping the green lock thingy. Confirming that in the script the thing was supposed to have been locked.

...

<Because she wanted insurance. And Zeeona being on Xenon Base is the best insurance you can possibly have. Notice also that Soolin dislikes Zukan (which turns out to be a much smarter action than Avon's)-- "spite" is a decent motivation.>

I'm afraid that doesn't even make sense to me.

No. I didn't think it would.

The alliance is barely

...

hanging together because of mutual distrust and suspicion, and Soolin thinks a good insurance is to incur the hatred of the figurehead/supplier

of the

...

antidote?

You can do things to spite people, and them not find out about it.

...

This is a *long-term* plan, remember;

But it's a short term betrayal. If a traitor is going to show their hand it's going to be sooner rather than later.

or do they intend to keep

...

Zeeona there for years and hope Zukan comes round before he finds a way

to

...

get even?

Zukan wouldn't have know anything if he hadn't betrayed them in the first place. He takes a lot of convincing when they do tell him. Perhaps this is another episode you should watch.

...

<As Vila had no idea that Blake is under control at that point, and Blake is the leader, it makes perfect sense.>

Yes he *does* know, they've all been talking about it non-stop since the episode started!!!

But Blake convinces him that it is all a conspiracy, and he believes Blake.

...

<They argue with Blake. Blake tells them that Ven Glynd has a plan and a way of ousting Servalan without bloodshed, but that he won't tell them

until

...

they get back on the Liberator. He is rational and lucid (remember that they don't have any actual proof at this point that his mind is being controlled);>

No, of course, the tone and all those all those 'renounce renounce' bits

at

...

the start were an illusion. Sorry, that *was* sarcasm,

Well, I did wonder. That was also sarcasm, by the way.

but they know damn

...

well that he's having mind problems, and they know the tone that caused

the

...

problems was heard just before he re-routed them to the asteroid to pick

up

...

the mummy, so it wouldn't take three seconds to work out they're linked.

They know that he's having mind problems, and they know the tone is connected to it, and they apparently suspect that it has something to do with the asteroid-- but they have no proof. Throughout they talk in terms of "ifs" and "maybes"; Cally says that "if" they are using a transmitter, there must be someone there to operate it. Suggesting that they are, wisely, giving the scenario the benefit of the doubt; they are wary, but as they have no conclusive proof as to what is going on, they are playing along with it until somebody shows his hand.

...

Yes, they do as he says. Avon almost *always* does what Blake wants him

to,

...

even when it's stupid. That doesn't make it not stupid.

Really? So Avon breaks out of the rest room earlier in the episode and orders Vila to disobey Blake's instructions because it's what Blake wants him to do? Avon has a heightened sense of self-preservation.

...

<(Jenna doesn't have *many* 'where-in-the-world-have-I-put-my-brain' moments, but she does seem to persistently be several steps behind Avon

and

...

Blake (the dreaded 'what's going on, Blake?' bits) so that they have to explain things to her - Redemption is especially bad on this point).> <So? Reading that episode back, she doesn't seem to ask any more

questions

...

than Vila or Gan.>

One expects better from Jenna and yes, IMO she does ask 'what's going on' more than they do here.

"In your opinion," not that you've actually checked it at all.

YMMV.

What does this mean? I suspect it's some kind of more virulent form of IMO.

...

I'm not even going to touch your view of SLD, because we're clearly watching completely different versions of the episode.

In other words it contradicts your fanon. A pity.

...

<Or that Jenna *saw* their discarded handcuffs in Bounty and said nothing???> <BECAUSE SHE WAS ONLY **PRETENDING** TO BE ON TARVIN'S SIDE. Next time watch the episode.>

<Deep sigh> *I* have watched it.

Well done. A change is as good as a rest I suppose.

...

I know she was only pretending.

Now you do.

*They*

...

don't know that - and from the dialogue after she leaves, they ****still don't work it out****, even though she noticed the handcuffs rather pointedly.

1/ She notices the handcuffs and so do the audience in a damned great close-up *****but that doesn't necessary mean that the rest of the crew noticed that she noticed them*****. 2/ We hear her kick the handcuffs during that damned great close-up, and we hear it ***** but is doesn't necessary mean that the rest of the crew heard it, nor that the noise meant to them that she had kicked the handcuffs*****. If you think the handcuffs were in too obvious a position for Jenna not to notice then that's the fault of the director not the script.

Jenny

_________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.