Well, if this hasn't broken February's record, I don't know what will. :)

There were a ton of thoughtful posts on this subject this morning and some very good points were made. Forgive me, if I feel a need to add my two cent's worth. I'm sure many of you are very worn of this topic.

Sally wrote:

I think this has gone past a joke. Quite simply, being called worthless crap hurts.

Sally, if Wendy had indeed called you "worthless crap" I would have been the first to come to your defense. But I honestly never saw Wendy attacking the poster. Now admittedly I may not remembering everything, and I'd appreciate it if such attacks exist if someone would repost the *quotes*. Twisting her words into personal attacks don't count.

I've said this before, but I'm going to say it again because I think it is important. The Internet makes it very easy for us to do quoting. Quoting avoids misunderstandings. So rather than twist what people say, use the quotes.

Carol and Shane's approval thereof have struck a very painful nerve.

I would speak up again. Wendy has a right to post to this list. I didn't say I agreed with everything she said. I didn't say I agreed with her posting style. What I did see was a large group of people attacking one person. Yet Wendy stood up for position without taking any of those attacks personally. I admire that. I don't know that I could have withstood such a barrage. I felt it was time that someone spoke up on her behalf. I tend to do that when I see an underdog.

I've been assuming for two years that people took my 'Fearless Leader',

'My

Darling', etc, the burbles sending up the sillier aspects of the show and splattering capitals and generally having a bit of fun with the characters and the show as just that - fun, and had the sensitivity to discriminate between that and my serious comments.

You use those terms even when you are participating in serious discussions. So if someone questions their appropriateness to the series in a serious manner, that may be why.

Any extreme posting style--as in Wendy's bluntness or your syrupy burbles--is going to be like fingernails across a blackboard to some readers. That happens. It's human nature. It doesn't mean anyone should have to change their posting style, but they should be aware of the fact that it's going to irritate a portion of the readers. If anyone on this list wants universal approval, they're on the wrong list.

Wendy wrote:

But this S/M stuff has been going on here for months and I'm tired of it. I don't mind that some people like slash, but if I see a slash zine I'm not forced to buy it. But every time I open my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep that sort of thing on the other list, where it belongs.

But you are not forced to read those posts. Just as you told Marian and Sally in regard to Tarrant stories "to stop reading bad fanfic," you can delete posts that are upsetting. None of us are going to like every topic on the B7 lists.

As for what belongs on the "other list," for the sake of peace those of us who enjoy certain topics do try to keep them on the other list. I don't see people initiating threads of an adult nature on this list. Sometimes lyst threads do drift in that direction, and often those threads are then quietly transferred to the other list. But to expect that posts to the lyst are never going to touch on slash is unreasonable. And I wouldn't have thought that "Beautiful Suffering" per se was a forbidden lyst topic. But then I don't regard "Beautiful Suffering" to be sexual. Which is what Betty said, and you answered:

Wendy wrote:

But this S/M stuff has been going on here for months and I'm tired of it. I don't mind that some people like slash, but if I see a slash zine I'm not forced to buy it. But every time I open my mailbox there's at least one post on the list about Suffering Beautifully, and I wish people would keep that sort of thing on the other list, where it belongs.

But you are not forced to read those posts. Just as you told Marian and Sally in regard to Tarrant stories "to stop reading bad fanfic," you can delete posts that are upsetting.

As for what belongs on the "other list," for the sake of peace those of us who enjoy certain topics do try to keep them on the other list. I don't see people initiating threads of an adult nature on this list. Sometimes lyst threads do drift in that direction, and often those threads are then quietly transferred to the other list. But to expect that posts to the lyst are never going to touch on slash is unreasonable. And I wouldn't have thought that "Beautiful Suffering" per se was a forbidden lyst topic. But then I don't regard "Beautiful Suffering" to be sexual. Which is what Betty said, and you answered:

My understanding of the concept of "Suffering Beautifully" was that a character is physically or emotionally hurt, and that this pain makes him more attractive in the eyes of the reader and/or writer. Which seems to me have a sadistic twist to it, even if there's not actual S/M sex.

But should sadism be a forbidden topic on the list? And if it is, what other topics that might offend a fan here or a fan there should be forbidden? That's a serious question. I don't like to offend list members, but too much censorship might water the list down to mush.

Back to h/c, and unfortunately I only have a few more minutes so I can't get into this as thoroughly as the subject deserves.

It's not the pain makes h/c stories interesting. It's as Betty said, the character's reaction to the pain that makes it interesting. But I will confess that some characters suffer beautifully. I've only seen a couple of Voyager eps, one of which was "The Chute," and I thought Paris and Kim looked a lot cuter scruffy and beaten than they did cleaned up. It's not that I like suffering, and I don't think I'm a sadist. They just looked cuter, the hair hanging in their faces, etc. It was a visual thing.

I will admit that I've also enjoyed some S/M B7 stories. And was shocked to find I enjoyed them. But I don't enjoy S/M in real life. No more than I enjoy war and killing in real life.

Sorry, I really am out of time. So I'm sending this off unproofed and hoping I made sense and didn't offend anyone.

Carol Mc