Fiona:
although Servalan may be President, all of her rivals, staff and subordinates (with a single exception) do appear to be male.
Off the top of my head, women in reasonably senior positions in Federation Civil Admin or military include Major Thania, Governor LeGrande, Kasabi, the Arbiter and Alta Morag in The Way Back.
Two additional potential biasing factors suggest that there may be a greater proportion of woman than this might suggest:
(1) We mainly see (the military) Space Command not the Earth (civil) equivalent; there may well be more woman in the civil administration compared with military, there may also be more women on Earth cf on space station
(2) Servalan may gather men around her as subordinates, for whatever reason (liking pretty ones or feeling more comfortable around men?); furthermore, the politcos we see visit S may have been chosen to be ones she would listen to as equals or superiors, again potentially biasing by gender
Tavia
----- Original Message ----- From: Tavia Chalcraft tavia@btinternet.com
Off the top of my head, women in reasonably senior positions in Federation Civil Admin or military include Major Thania, Governor LeGrande, Kasabi, the Arbiter and Alta Morag in The Way Back.
Fair enough, but one also has to take into account the fact that, with a few notable exceptions (e.g. The Way Back), most of the soldiers, scientists, rebels and so forth who one sees standing around the background of Federation-run settings appear to be male.
(1) We mainly see (the military) Space Command not the Earth (civil) equivalent; there may well be more woman in the civil administration compared with military, there may also be more women on Earth cf on space station
This is kind of suppositional; who's to say that men are necessarily seen as more warlike in the Federation, after all.
(2) Servalan may gather men around her as subordinates, for whatever
reason
(liking pretty ones or feeling more comfortable around men?); furthermore, the politcos we see visit S may have been chosen to be ones she would listen to as equals or superiors, again potentially biasing by gender
Again, fair enough, but: a) why *does* she feel more comfortable around one gender than the other, if it's an egalitarian society? and b) dunno about you, but I'm not sure Secretary Rontane fits either the category of pretty boy or someone she'd listen to...
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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Fiona Moore wrote:
Fair enough, but one also has to take into account the fact that, with a few notable exceptions (e.g. The Way Back), most of the soldiers, scientists, rebels and so forth who one sees standing around the background of Federation-run settings appear to be male.
One of the things that I find interesting, actually, is that the B7 writers obviously made an effort to include women in positions of power and in important roles, which I find very laudable. I honesty think that the idea was to present the Federation as a society of complete sexual equality. But you're quite right, of course, that the vast majority of the characters we see in the background (or even, to a somewhat lesser extent, the foreground) are male. I read about a psychological study once in which, IIRC, the researchers surveyed people after a group discussion about their perceptions of whether the group interaction was dominated by men or by women. When women did approximately half of the speaking, both men *and* woman said that women had dominated the conversation. When women made up something like 1/3 of the participation (not sure of the actual percentage, but I think it was around there somewhere), people tended to say that the interaction was equally shared. I wonder if something like that might not be at least partially what happened with B7... Make about 1/3 of the guest roles female, and it'll look equal until you actually start thinking about the numbers? And it probably just never even occured to anybody to case a woman as Generic Trooper No. 3.
(See? I can look at the show "externally." I just find it much easier with setting and background than with characters. :))
From: Betty Ragan ragan@sdc.org
I read about a psychological study once in which, IIRC, the researchers surveyed people after a group discussion about their perceptions of whether the group interaction was dominated by men or by women. When women did approximately half of the speaking, both men *and* woman said that women had dominated the conversation. When women made up something like 1/3 of the participation (not sure of the actual percentage, but I think it was around there somewhere), people tended to say that the interaction was equally shared.
I've heard this cited several times before, by several people (I think Dale Spender was one) and I can quite readily believe it. I recently catalogued all the major personalities in the 3000 year history of my fantasy rolegaming world and found myself thinking that maybe I'd put in too many women. So I did a headcount to check, and leaving aside a few dragons and demonic nobles of unknown gender, the male:female ratio came out as 60:40. Yet the women seemed to dominate the list.
I wonder if something like that might not be at least partially what happened with B7... Make about 1/3 of the guest roles female, and it'll look equal until you actually start thinking about the numbers? And it probably just never even occured to anybody to case a woman as Generic Trooper No. 3.
I've just been through the cast lists given in Attwood, doing a headcount for the whole series, omitting only a few sexless individuals (like the robot in Volcano). Plot significance of any one individual is not taken into account. It's a quick count and might not be totally accurate, but the results are clear enough:
Males: 209. Females: 60 (about 10:3 or 3.3:1)
For the first season only (all by the same writer, who despite input from Chris Boucher probably assigned the sex of most if not all guest characters), it is 51 males versus 14 females or 3.6:1. See - Nation really is a sexist pig!
Quite a few episodes featured male guests but no female ones. Prize winners here are Harvest of Kairos and Traitor, each having eight speaking male guest parts and no female ones at all.
Only two episodes seem to have no male guests - Duel, and Sarcophagus (I counted the alien as a guest character, even though she wasn't played by a guest actress).
(See? I can look at the show "externally." I just find it much easier with setting and background than with characters. :))
Rejoice, Child, for you have Seen the Light. Now go and study some woodlice.
Neil
--- Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net wrote:
I've just been through the cast lists given in Attwood, doing a headcount for the whole series, omitting only a few sexless individuals (like the robot in Volcano). Plot significance of any one individual is not taken into account. It's a quick count and might not be totally accurate, but the results are clear enough:
Males: 209. Females: 60 (about 10:3 or 3.3:1)
For the first season only (all by the same writer, who despite input from Chris Boucher probably assigned the sex of most if not all guest characters), it is 51 males versus 14 females or 3.6:1. See - Nation really is a sexist pig!
Quite a few episodes featured male guests but no female ones. Prize winners here are Harvest of Kairos and Traitor, each having eight speaking male guest parts and no female ones at all.
Two thoughts suggest themselves at this point.
1/ Some kind of lifetime achievement award may in order for Robert Holmes - Two female supporting characters, a croupier and a barmaid with a heart of gold !
2/ What was the male-female ratio in Equity in the late 1970's ?
Stephen.
P.S. Were you counting the computer in Games ?
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Stephen asked:
2/ What was the male-female ratio in Equity in the late 1970's ?
More to the point, what was the ratio of male to female Equity members who were actually cast? Unemployment among female actors is even higher than among male actors.
-(Y)
From: Stephen Date stephend999@yahoo.co.uk
I've just been through the cast lists given in Attwood, doing a headcount for the whole series,
Two thoughts suggest themselves at this point.
1/ Some kind of lifetime achievement award may in order for Robert Holmes - Two female supporting characters, a croupier and a barmaid with a heart of gold !
Yes, they do seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
2/ What was the male-female ratio in Equity in the late 1970's ?
I would address that question to the Prime Hierarchy of Unknown Quantification. In other words, PHUQ knows.
P.S. Were you counting the computer in Games ?
Certainly did. Anything that could be given a gender was counted (but counted very quickly, with numbers scrawled on the back of an envelope, so the final tally isn't necessarily dead accurate. Not that I think it's necessary, 209:60 is a pretty clear bias to the male side).
Neil
----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net
Certainly did. Anything that could be given a gender was counted (but counted very quickly, with numbers scrawled on the back of an envelope, so the final tally isn't necessarily dead accurate. Not that I think it's necessary, 209:60 is a pretty clear bias to the male side).
I haven't done a head count, but I think it's also safe to guess that the bulk of the female characters fall into the 20-30 years old age bracket...
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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--- Neil Faulkner N.Faulkner@tesco.net wrote: > From: Betty Ragan ragan@sdc.org
about the numbers? And it probably just never
even occured to anybody
to case a woman as Generic Trooper No. 3.
Exactly, which is why I tend to make the extras my benchmark for things like gender, racial, [fill in identity trait here] equality.
For the first season only (all by the same writer, who despite input from Chris Boucher probably assigned the sex of most if not all guest characters), it is 51 males versus 14 females or 3.6:1. See - Nation really is a sexist pig!
Leaving aside the question of whether he is or not :), he has gone on the record in a couple of places saying he has never felt totally comfortable writing for female characters.
Quite a few episodes featured male guests but no female ones. Prize winners here are Harvest of Kairos and Traitor, each having eight speaking male guest parts and no female ones at all.
You forgot "Killer." Although given the costumes the men had, that's probably a good thing...
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
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