Woke up this morning, turned on the internet and read the dreadful news ...
Hoping all our people in the US and their families are all right?
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Sally Manton wrote:
Woke up this morning, turned on the internet and read the dreadful news ...
Hoping all our people in the US and their families are all right?
I and mine are fine. We do have some NY lystians, though. I have heard from Dana, but isn't Trish from that part of the country, too? Has anyone heard from her?
Mistral (thinking that, contrary to the subject line, terrorism is really not off-topic here)
In message 3B9EECC5.60DC81BB@centurytel.net, Mistral mistral@centurytel.net writes
Sally Manton wrote:
Woke up this morning, turned on the internet and read the dreadful news ...
Hoping all our people in the US and their families are all right?
I and mine are fine. We do have some NY lystians, though. I have heard from Dana, but isn't Trish from that part of the country, too? Has anyone heard from her?
Yes - she's fine, although she's worried about friends.
Mistral said:
I and mine are fine. We do have some NY lystians, though. I have heard from Dana, but isn't Trish from that part of the country, too? Has anyone heard from her?
She lives about eight hours north of NYC. I spoke to her yesterday-- she's physically safe but knows many people who worked in the World Trade Center.
-(Y)
Neil Faulkner wrote:
Mistral (thinking that, contrary to the subject line, terrorism is really not off-topic here)
Any comparison with Star One and its supposed rights or wrongs strikes me as facile against the appalling reality.
Actually, I wasn't referring to Star One at all, though I think it's a perfectly legitimate comparison. I was speaking more generally to the idea of how far do you go in support of what's right, and the differences between individuals and cultures in the idea of what right *is*. I have spent the last couple of days listening to Americans saying things like "what sort of sick, twisted monsters could attack innocent civilians?" (or, alternatively, "could celebrate the deaths of innocents by dancing in the streets"). Frankly, I am more than a little annoyed at both the cultural arrogance and the ignorance demonstrated by these questions.
Modern Arab attitudes cannot be understood without some grasp of traditional Islamic influence any more than modern U.S. attitudes can be understood without some grasp of Christianity and Judaism. Osama bin Laden and his ilk may be at the extreme end of the acting-out scale, but he is a predictable product of his culture; he embodies certain deep-rooted and traditional attitudes and ideals. [Please note that this is not the same as saying all Arabs or Moslems are potential terrorists.] It doesn't bother me when people *disagree* with another culture; it does however bother me when people don't understand the *concept* of a different culture, and that perfectly sane and rational people can have *completely* different ideas of what right and wrong are.
If one reflects that (1) the terrorists consider themselves at war with the West generally, and the US specifically; (2) the entire idea of non-combatants in war is both very recent historically, and Western in origin; (3) certain traditional cultural views in the Mideast are particularly bloodthirsty [also please note that I am not making any particular moral judgements about bloodthirstiness] it should not be difficult to grasp the idea that a certain segment of the Arab world would not only approve but celebrate these events. It does not make them sick; it simply indicates they are not Westernized.
And when one stops to think that Osama bin Laden and others like him consider that US involvement in Mideast affairs has been a foot on the throat of the Arab peoples for decades, it isn't such a stretch to realize that bin Laden is, in the eyes of many, a freedom fighter like Blake; and to those who believe in that way, the bombing of the World Trade Center and government buildings is exactly analogous to the destruction of Star One (it has demoralized, it has affected the economy, it has shut down many government services [albeit more temporarily than the destruction of Star One]. It has killed many, many people). Being able to see from the enemy's viewpoint doesn't diminish our tragedy, but it would be more likely to lead us to prevent future tragedies than stubbornly clinging to the idea that our culture is the only one that must be taken into account. [BTW, talking about USAns as a group here, not you.]
As far as facility, I think you underestimate both the amount of thought I have put into my position re Star One, and my natural sympathy for the difficulty inherent in being a member of a traditionalistic cultural minority in the modern world.
Mistral
<Mistral wrote interestingly and intelligently>
The truth is, any culture could have produced people capable of this. The culture of the Goethe and Bach produced the Nazis. We Brits have slave trader ancstors responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands (although we're also the nation that used military force to end the mass international slave trade.) Inherently community-oriented and humane African village cultures produced people like Idi Amin. That the people responsible for the September 11 attrocity were probably Arabs does not make Arab culture uniquely evil. Which isn't the same as saying all cultures are the same - Islam is a warrior religion whose most scared text provides enormous justification for the use of force against unbelievers, let alone the forces of Satan. Meaning the West in general - and Israel, the US, and UK most of all (usually in that order.) And unlike Christianity and Judaism, Islam is singularly lacking in modernizers, moderates, and liberals - especially in the Arab world.
*BUT* I'm sure that the most important goal of this attrocity was to force a large part of the Islamic world to an extreme position anti-American position, in a similar way to Saddam's Scud attacks did during the Gulf war, but to a much greater extent. This isn't happening. The scale of the attack has created genuine horror and sympathy, and the US's controlled but determined response is shaping into exactly the opposite of the sort of heavy-handed and badly-aimed action that the perpetrators must have been aiming at, believing it would radicalize Islamic opinion. Which isn't to say that I believe that the US response will be - or must be or can be - free of what is euphemistically known as collateral damage - ie dead civilians. But the US will make every reasonable effort to spare civilian lives, while mounting an effective counter-attack - and that the moral difference between this and the attrocity its enemies staged will be clear to the majority of the Islamic world. I'm basing this assessment on US behaviour so far, and the influence of Colin Powell in the administration.
I also suspect that the terrorists naively believed that the Israelis would take this opportunity to carry out extremely aggressive policies in the West Bank, again radicalizing opinion. This is natural: the terrorists and almost any Arab government would have done so in an equivalent situation. The Israelis, of course, are much smarter than that.
Finally, the terrorists must also have hoped to place a distance between the US and the Europeans - especially the Germans, French, and Belgiums, who have shown a huge ability for moral compromise, an ability to pander to terrorists, and a dislike for US policy in the Middel East. This doesn't seem to be happening, although I'm still waiting to see what the French do.
That the US seems to be making such rapid progress in tracking down its enemies is useful, but probably not as important as these factors.
The US government failed to understand its enemy and miscalulated tactically - ie in the degree of security on internal airflights. The terrorists misunderstood both their enemy and their own people, and miscalculated strategically. Comparisons to Pearl Harbour are indeed valid.
- Jonathan
Mistral said:
[Please note that this is not the same as saying all Arabs or Moslems are potential terrorists.]
I'd say all human beings are potential terrorists
If one reflects that (1) the terrorists consider themselves at war with the West generally, and the US specifically; (2) the entire idea of non-combatants in war is both very recent historically, and Western in origin;
I don't agree--I would say that certainly ancient and medieval, and some early modern warfare was quite limited in geographic scope and the number of people involved; the vast majority of casualties were due to disease and wound infection rather than direct interpersonal violence-- basically, you'd have a small bunch of guys on horses trying to knock each other down and a larger bunch of guys hitting each other with clubs. The longbow and crossbow improved the ability of soldiers to kill other soldiers but didn't lead to civilian deaths.
-(Y)
Dana Shilling wrote:
If one reflects that (1) the terrorists consider themselves at war with the West generally, and the US specifically; (2) the entire idea of non-combatants in war is both very recent historically, and Western in origin;
I don't agree--I would say that certainly ancient and medieval, and some early modern warfare was quite limited in geographic scope and the number of people involved; the vast majority of casualties were due to disease and wound infection rather than direct interpersonal violence-- basically, you'd have a small bunch of guys on horses trying to knock each other down and a larger bunch of guys hitting each other with clubs. The longbow and crossbow improved the ability of soldiers to kill other soldiers but didn't lead to civilian deaths.
I didn't say civilians died in battle; that would be a bit oxymoronic. Countless civilians died in sieges, countless more died or were brutalized as a result of raping and pillaging as spoils of war, and then there's plain old ordinary raiding a village. The ideas of chivalry and 'civilized warfare' that set civilians aside as not legitimate targets do indeed go back some hundreds of years in Europe - but are still fairly recent as the long span of history goes.
Mistral
To all US members of the list, and particularly those in the NYC and Washington D.C. area, my thoughts and prayers are with you.
Murray
I would like to thank Mistral for her thoughtful post. I hope that our respective governments are able to think as clearly before they react to Tuesday's events, but their initial rhetoric has dismayed me. The attacks may have been an assault on freedom and democracy from our viewpoint, but if Messrs Bush and Blair honestly believe that this was the motivation in the minds of the terrorists who sacrificed their own lives, as well as the thousands of others they stole, then I don't see how we're going to get out of here without a lot more bloodshed.
My heartfelt sympathies to all those who have been, and may yet be, affected.
From: Mistral mistral@centurytel.net
Neil Faulkner wrote:
Mistral (thinking that, contrary to the subject line, terrorism is really not off-topic here)
Any comparison with Star One and its supposed rights or wrongs strikes
me as
facile against the appalling reality.
Actually, I wasn't referring to Star One at all, though I think it's a perfectly legitimate comparison. I was speaking more generally to the idea of how far do you go in support of what's right, and the differences between individuals and cultures in the idea of what right *is*.
Please don't get me wrong. What I meant was, to discuss Tuesday's events in terms of B7, or vice versa, seemed to me - and still seems - to be just downright wrong, at least so soon after the event.
I can perceive two dimensions to the strike on the World Trade Centre. The first is the ideological, the one of motivation and intention, and ultimate justification in perpetrating such an act. That does tie in with elements of B7, as you rightly point out. Against that there is the purely human dimension of sudden loss and bereavement on a colossal scale, of confusion and disruption and all the rest of it, with huge question marks looming over everything. Not that I lost any friends or anyone in the attacks, but as a self-declared anti-capitalist I'm still stricken numb by what's happened. Western capitalist complacency sorely needed a kick up the arse, but not like this.
This is all too fucking real to be held up against some tatty little skiffy show, however close to the knuckle it came at times. People are probably still dying out there. We should show a bit of respect and at least wait until the dust has settled.
But thanks for an intelligent and carefully considered reply. I wasn't getting at you. This is no time for a scrap.
Neil
Please don't get me wrong. What I meant was, to discuss Tuesday's events
in
terms of B7, or vice versa, seemed to me - and still seems - to be just downright wrong, at least so soon after the event.
This is all too fucking real to be held up against some tatty little
skiffy
show, however close to the knuckle it came at times. People are probably still dying out there. We should show a bit of respect and at least wait until the dust has settled.
But thanks for an intelligent and carefully considered reply. I wasn't getting at you. This is no time for a scrap.
Neil
This is an example of sanity.
- Jonthan
Neil Faulkner wrote:
This is all too fucking real to be held up against some tatty little skiffy show, however close to the knuckle it came at times. People are probably still dying out there. We should show a bit of respect and at least wait until the dust has settled.
But thanks for an intelligent and carefully considered reply. I wasn't getting at you. This is no time for a scrap.
Ah. I'm sorry, I honestly wasn't trying to scrap. I was trying to process my own reactions by comparing the events to something familiar, and discussing them with friends. However, under the circumstances, if it disturbs you, I'll try to remember to refrain from said comparisons.
Mistral
-
Dana Shilling -
Harriet Monkhouse -
Jonathan Coupe -
Julia Jones -
Mistral -
Murray -
Neil Faulkner -
Sally Manton