Blakes7 November 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

65 participants
273 discussions

Re: Betrayal and episode 'Blake'
by Ellynne G. 25 Nov '01

25 Nov '01

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 08:38:14 +1100 Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists(a)katspace.com> writes: > > The difficulty with this, and indeed with trying to create any > futuristic language use (such as Kai was complaining of the lack of > in > B7) is that most native English-speakers are completely unaware of > (a) > the non-translatability of puns and (b) the high level of idioms we > use > in our everyday speech. Idioms don't translate either. If you'll pardon the idiom, been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. It's not just idioms. I've spent my time going nuts trying to explain things that were littered with cultural expectations (try explaining the phrase "Oh, grow up," to someone whose culture doesn't necessarily combine independence [in some of the senses we use it] with maturity). And let's not even talk about accidentally using what seems like a simple, connect the dots metaphore that, it turns out, _isn't_ even where background (but not language) are fairly similar. Or explaining _connotations_ (think about it, they may mean the same thing, but would you give a pirate a ship called "The Revenge" or the "Tit-For-Tat"? Although I have seen some writers who were clever with it. I remember a short story where the evil colonial power types kept getting eaten by a local monster because they refused to learn the local language and the saftey precautions didn't translate clearly. > Actually, in B7, the thing that bugged me about the language use was > not > the slang that the Space Rats used -- I thought that was rather good > -- > but the jokes that Vila told in "Ultraworld". > Where to space-pilots park their ships? > By parking meteors. > > That jarred, because "parking meters" is such a late-20th-century > concept that I find it hard to believe that a culture such as > 28th-century Federated Earth is going to *have* such things as > parking > meters; we don't even know if private individuals are allowed to own > their own vehicles, necessarily, and if they didn't then the concept > of > parking meters would be nonsensical. Of if everyone used air-cars, > then > maybe the concept of "parking" isn't the same. Do you see what I > mean? Even authors I love - like Bujold - do this. Russian's supposed to be the main language, with some French, Greek, and English - but no one seems to speak it. For example, the ruling counts, we're told, got their titles from a degeneration of 'accountants.' > Of course, one thing that I don't think anyone writing SF is very > likely > to do is write a story in which the *meanings* of well-known words > have > changed (or at least, the most common, salient meaning has changed). > Even though we've observed such a phenomenon in our own lifetimes > with > the word "gay". Their readers would be too confused if, say, > calling > someone "blue" was a deadly insult, or if "typewriter" meant "an > obsolete holo-projector" etc. Easier on the brain to use new words. Unless they do it well or with a point. It's very important that Herbert's Fremen use 'water' and 'moisture' in place of 'blood.' Vinge, if I remember right, used 'blue' effectively as slang for police (and sometimes as a deadly insult among those who didn't like them). But I should talk. Languages fascinate me, but I have a very limited talent with them (9 out of 10 I'd have given the Andromeda ep the wrong spelling). Oh, I try. I did come up with a basic theory of Trek vs B7 English, but it's mostly accounting for sound and word differences (which isn't terribly consistent of me). No, what I'm proud of is coming up with a long, drawn out theory on why Betazoid feminine names end with a. > Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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Re: [B7L] Re: familiar or formal
by Ellynne G. 24 Nov '01

24 Nov '01

On Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:27:05 -0500 "Dana Shilling" <dshilling(a)worldnet.att.net> writes: > Helen said: > > > I think Avon's default would be the formal. No idea which he'd use > for > > the situation in "Blake" as he believed the betrayal to be from > someone > > very close indeed. > > It all depends on whether the Bible has survived as a religious or > even > a literary text, cf. "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me." > In fact, religious texts are the only ones in which "thou" continues > to be > used in C21 English. And Shakespeare, I suppose (I can really imagine Avon and Vila having an Antipholus-Dromio conversation [and am now imagining a story in which Avon and Vila arrive on a planet where, unbeknownst to them, their long lost twin brothers (with the same names and wearing identical outfits [I can see it in Avon's case (black leather is black leather [am I asking for trouble, saying that?) but it's a bit more of a stretch in Vila's]) live and where Blake (also unbeknownst to them) has been taken prisoner and will be executed at the end of the day. Jenna, who also (unbeknownst, etc) is living there, having taken up the religious life after mistakenly concluding Blake was dead, further complicates things]). I don't have any idea which way Avon would go with Shakespearean English. I suppose he'd use 'thou' with Vila, being his social superior, and with Anna. Outside of that, I'm not sure of the times when it would have been right to use and when it wouldn't. But I think he'd use 'you' with Blake, being formal and distant, right up until 'Blake.' Dana's right. The Biblical overtone makes it that much stronger (brilliant idea, actually, IMHO). Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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Re: [B7L] Crossovers
by Steve Kilbane 24 Nov '01

24 Nov '01

Harriet: > The result is that in mid third season, which is where I'm at, > they've had to split the crew between two ships who get alternate > episodes. ...which happened to confuse the heck out of me, since I happened to miss that particular episode; I just got the impression that the Beeb had dropped the stack of tapes, and not bothered to sort after picking them up. Having read an "upcoming episodes" guide in an old magazine to work out what I'd missed, things became *much* clearer. steve

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Re: Site update
by Sally Manton 24 Nov '01

24 Nov '01

Thanks Minnie, they were lovely :-) And while I think of it (having recently had to re-*down*load affter *up*grading) there's 4 Blakes 7 music videos for the downloading at http://www.morgaine1.btinternet.co.uk/Videos.htm#_Blakes_Seven and very nice they are two (I love the Brothers in Arms one). Sally _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Site update
by Minnie 24 Nov '01

24 Nov '01

Hi all Just a small update on my site if you are interested. Feed back is always welcome, just keep it polite :) If you have any requests, feel free to ask, im always up to the challenge!! Cheers. Min.xxx http://www.darksites.com/souls/horror/blakes7/index.html

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Fwd: [B7L] Re: Betrayal and episode 'Blake'
by Sally Manton 24 Nov '01

24 Nov '01

Kai wrote, among other good stuff: <with Vila one always gets the feeling he should sound more colloquial than he does.> This is a problem with Vila in English as well :-) I've read a number of stories where he's written with a heavy and intrusive 'dialect', supposedly to emphasise his lower class, and always find it distracting. <It may also be the dialogue's tendency towards the kind of neutral sci-fi dialect, where temporal tell-tale signs like contemporary slang or pronounced regional accents are downplayed to homogenise the language and also to make it sound more "timeless".> I also think any attempt to invent 'new' slang or word usages tend tto jar horribly (in Stardrive, for instance). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Fwd: Re: [B7L] Ships
by Sally Manton 24 Nov '01

24 Nov '01

Ellynne wrote: <The evil idea of putting them on The Love Boat probably doesn't even bear mentioning -> Thank you Ellynne, I think that may be the most horrifying cross-over idea I have heard for ages ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [B7L] Ships
by Ellynne G. 24 Nov '01

24 Nov '01

The evil idea of putting them on The Love Boat probably doesn't even bear mentioning - although it would be one way of resolving all those relationships that never went anywhere. Yes, you know what I'm talking about - Vila books a cruise and Chenie is working at the bar. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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Re: Betrayal and episode 'Blake'
by Kai V Karmanheimo 23 Nov '01

23 Nov '01

Nico wrote: <<What do native speakers of such a language think?>> I have actually faced this question back when I did my novelisation attempts in Finnish. I always had all the crew members (only series 1-2 crews, mind you) using the familiar "sinä" instead the formal plural "te" when talking to each other. Only Zen and Orac were exceptions here (Orac seems to have the knack of sounding matter-of-fact and up-yours-mate at the same time), so in my mind Avon would definitely say "Oletko sinä pettänyt minut?" Actually, since contemporary colloquial Finnish frequently eliminates the pronoun altogether (because of brevity, redundancy and probably a need to evade direct address), he might say "Oletko pettänyt minut?" Then again, that kills the dramatic emphasis. Bear in mind that the use of formal address (we call it "teitittely") is not nearly as common or strict as in German, for example; if you aspire to be a primary school teacher in Finland, don't expect the pupils to address you with "te"; suggesting such a thing will just get you laughed out of the classroom. Its use has become more and more vague and infrequent over the last ten years, a phenomenon which the more conservative language watch dogs usually attribute to the degenerative influence of English. So having one of the crew members use a formal address when speaking to another would suggest the existence of an explicit hierarchical system which I don't see there at all. Outside of Travis and other military personnel addressing Servalan with "te", I also had Blake address Sarkoff and the Stott formally, not as a gesture of subservience but merely as an acknowledgement of an older person's stature in a situation where you don't actually know him but need his trust badly. Never Travis, though: there is no suggestion of either seniority, respect or a need to adhere to any social code that would prompt Blake to use a formal address. Vila might do it in "Hostage". Since I've got the excuse to talk about translating, the thing I always found much harder was finding the right register for the dialogue. Blake's 7's dialogue is certainly tight and snappy yet it can also be very contrived and theatrical, not very vernacular. Looking back on my translations, they tend to be overly stiff and formal (even taking into account my linguistic skills at the time), and with Vila one always gets the feeling he should sound more colloquial than he does. The difference between written and spoken Finnish can be very wide, and while you can trasnscribe the formal features of spoken Finnish into writing pretty well, it's not very clear when you should do that. It may also be the dialogue's tendency towards the kind of neutral sci-fi dialect, where temporal tell-tale signs like contemporary slang or pronounced regional accents are downplayed to homogenise the language and also to make it sound more "timeless". This would suggest a rather formal tone throughout, one that is neither too pretentious nor too obviously vernacular. But then perhaps I'm reading this all wrong. Kai

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RE: Re: [B7L] Crossovers
by Sally Manton 23 Nov '01

23 Nov '01

Leia wrote: <Vila is indeed cute and I imagine he'd be rather more pleasant company than most of the others anyway. He at least seems to know how to have fun.> and Nicola: <Up till season 4 anyway, poor thing. He has the stuffing knocked out of him then. I can only recall 3 or 4 scenes where the poor guy can even crack a smile.> And I can't see it getting much better for him in *any* Season 5. Not with this lot. (Actually, I know I'm one of those minorities of approximately one here, but I'm still firmlt of the opinion that, if Blake survived and had anything - people/a base/a ship - to still call his own, Vila would tell fannish sentiment and the Scorpio crew to go to hell and want to stay with Fearless and now Extremely Fearsome Leader. *None* of them have really any call on his loyalties by that stage, and especially not My Darling. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Blakes7 November 2001