Blakes7 December 2001

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67 participants
252 discussions

Re: [B7L] beachwear
by Sally Manton 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Walter wrote: <Okay, beachwear for our heros and favourite villains, I can't resist.> ;-) You know, of course, we can't assume that in their day and age they wear anything *at all* to swim in (we can about sleeping, Dayna says something to the effect). Maybe that's *why* Avon doesn't go in for watersports. Speaking of which, what sort of watersports are there for people are living spartan and very dull lives in Domes? If there are public baths, I doubt that they're more than basic, and going to the beach on Bank Holidays is hardly an realistic idea if [a] going out anywhere is an offence and [b] holidays per se are probably an offence as well :-) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Dorset meet
by Judith Proctor 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Anyone in the Dorset area is welcome to drop into our Xmas gathering on Sat 29 December (Corfe Mullen, near Poole). We're all B7 fans, but we have a wide range of other SF interests too. Veg out, watch videos and generally relax. If interested, drop me a line off-list for more details. Judith (still off list with the usual sore fingers, etc) -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '03 21-23 Feb 2003 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

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What was the Size of the Fifth Legion - 280,000 T?
by seven＠gaudaprime.com 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Tarrant in Rumours mentions both armies and fleets when he calls Servalan High Admiral of the Galactic Fleets and Lord General of the Six Armies. Grose was a Section Leader in the Fifth Legion, an army thing rather than naval (Legion in the Roman military was land-based), and the rank of Colonel (held by Grose's commanding officer Astrid) does not occur in naval lists. According to an online dictionary, the various units in an army are defined as follows: Squad. The smallest tactical unit of military personnel. Section. An army tactical unit smaller than a platoon and larger than a squad. *Platoon. A subdivision of a company of troops consisting of two or more squads or sections, usually commanded by a lieutenant. Company. A subdivision of a military regiment or battalion that constitutes the lowest administrative unit. It is usually under the command of a captain and is made up of at least two platoons. *Battalion. An army unit typically consisting of a headquarters and two or more companies, batteries, or similar subunits. *Regiment. A military unit of ground troops consisting of at least two battalions, usually commanded by a colonel. Brigade. A military unit consisting of a variable number of combat battalions or regiments. Asterisked units are not mentioned in B7. Commander Escon suggests a small number for the size of a squad in Seek ("We have the whole area circled; squads on every roof, disruptors with wide firing ..."). In the fourth episode, there are four Guardians in the time squad (unless the title refers to Cally, Blake, Vila & Avon on Saurian Major). There are four in Sleer's squad in Gold. There are five in the squad Major Greenlee despatches. There were six members in the squads in The Way Back and Bounty, and of course in Blake's. Six is the more common number of Troopers in a squad. The capacity of a T-16 Troop Transporter, judging by the three rooms shown in Moloch, is between thirty and 40. Assuming this is enough for one Section, a Section would contain six squads of six troopers each (either inclusive or exclusive of the squad leader). Dayna mentions "a full Company of troops" in Animals without giving an idea as to its size. Colonel Astrid should be over a regiment but B7 doesn't mention regiments. It presumably has given him a Legion. A Brigade Commander is mentioned in Moloch but in such a way as to suggest it is under a Colonel, and therefore smaller than a regiment / legion: from Moloch Servalan: Section Leader Grose, what happened to Colonel Astrid? Grose: Colonel Astrid, he met with an accident. Servalan: And his second-in-command? Grose: He met with an accident, too. Lector: Yeah, it was a very bad time for accidents. Servalan: I see. And you assumed full command? Grose: Of course, the demands of duty. I was next in line. Servalan: You were just a Section Leader aboard a flagship, serving under two pilot Captains and a Brigade Commander. Did they all meet with accidents too? Servalan's thinking here is that Grose was not next in line. The pilot captains and a brigade commander are ranks between Colonel Astrid's and Section Leader Grose's. Also, when brigade is mentioned by Avon in Pressure Point ("more efficient than any brigade of troops"), it suggests a number large enough to repel a small army (because Vila has said "Armies can't do it, space fleets can't do it, but we can, is that it?") but not larger. The current ranks in the British Army and Navy are ordered like this: British Army Royal Navy *Field Marshal Admiral of the Fleet General Admiral (*) *Lieutenant-General *Vice Admiral *Major-General *Rear Admiral *Brigadier *Commodore Colonel Captain *Lieutenant-Colonel Commander Major Lieutenant Commander Captain Lieutenant Lieutenant *Sub-Lieutenant *Second Lieutenant *Midshipman Admiral corresponds nicely with Fleet Warden General (eg. Old StarKiller). In the US Army, Major is above Captain and below Lieutenant Colonel. Majors Thania and Greenlee are presumed to be Majors Lieutenant. Colonel Astrid's second-in-command is likewise a Major, as well as presumably commanding a brigade. The Federation Ground Force would look something like this: A Squad Leader is over a squad of six Privates or Troopers (=6 T). A Section Leader is over a Section of six Squads (=36 T). A Lieutenant is over a Platoon of six Sections (=216 T). A Captain is over a Company of six Platoons (=1296 T). A Major is over a Brigade of six Companies (=7776 T). A Colonel is over a Legion of six Brigades (=279,936 T). A General is over an Army of six Legions (=1,679,616 T). The Supreme Commander is over six Armies (=10,077,696 T) This makes 10,077,696 Troopers in the Federation Ground Forces before Star One (not counting squad leaders, section leaders, sub-commanders, unit commanders, sergeants, and officers). Assuming a Federation of two hundred planets with six million citizens each, that is a ratio of 1,200 m to 10 m, or 120 citizens to every Trooper. The alien fleet contained 600 ships and the battle with them cost the Federation its military machine. Each ship killed an average of over 16,000 Terran Troopers. Whether these figures argue for or against the other figures mentioned above, I cannot say. At the height of the Cold War a couple of decades ago, the four largest armies were maintained by China, Vietnam, USSR, USA, each having over a million troops (in rough figures). A ten million-strong Federation Ground Force ruling half the civlised worlds seems small in comparison. However, Legion, according to the dictionary, was "the major unit of the Roman army consisting of 3,000 to 6,000 infantry troops and 100 to 200 cavalry troops." In comparison, Colonel Astrid's Fifth Legion seems massively over-sized at 280,000 Troops. Any comments? DC http://www.dictionary.com/ http://www.lib.mq.edu.au/all/journeys/people/ http://hermit.org/Blakes7/SevenCyc/T.html (Troopers) http://tezcatlipoca.algonet.se/cgi-bin/getbyid.pl?id=14387 http://tezcatlipoca.algonet.se/cgi-bin/getbyid.pl?id=25766

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Reply re Federation military
by Helen Atkins 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Re "At the height of the Cold War a couple of decades ago, the four largest armies were maintained by China, Vietnam, USSR, USA, each having over a million troops (in rough figures). A ten million-strong Federation Ground Force ruling half the civilised worlds seems small in comparison." Military forces in developed countries are getting relatively smaller as a proportion of populations, as hardware and training become more important than numbers. If this trend continues it doesn't necessarily follow that the Federation's troop numbers are "low", relative to its time period. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Fwd: [B7L] Re: Blake Bashing versus Avon worship
by Sally Manton 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

Hene wrote: <In short, we have lower expectations of Avon because he's told us what to expect from him. If Blake claims moral high ground, he has to act in a way to back that claim.> Yes and no - there is probably *some* of this to the question, but it doesn't explain why, when Blake *does* live up to higher standards and do the Right Thing, he gets called [a] a boring goodie-goodie and [b] hypocritical, just doing it for reasons of manipulation and self-conceit (and yes, I have seen [a] and [b] argued simultaneously, though not on this list). And Tarrant gets it as well, when he does try to act in accordance with those TeamUberAlles principles he's so fond of. It's quite true that it's far easier to live up to your own moral principles when you very carefully don't ascribe to any (and I am also talking about Vilakins :-)) and those who do have to live with the results when they fall short ... hey, but at least Blake does try, and keeps trying, though what he's been put through that would batter most men into cowed self-preservation long before we get to Star One, let alone Gauda Prime. And <veg> to be fair, all the time he's fighting and arguing for power being with honest men, I don't recall him *ever* claiming that he was one of them himself ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [B7L] What was the Size of the Fifth Legion - 280,000 T?
by Ellynne G. 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

On Sun, 02 Dec 2001 15:52:05 +1300 seven(a)gaudaprime.com writes: > > Any comments? Comment #1: Whoa. I'm impressed. Rest of the comments: Despite the way Servalan seems to spend their lives like water, there is a bit of internal evidence for low troop numbers - Albion being controlled by a small force and a large bomb, for example. Then there are the mutoids. They really _don't_ have enough people they can trust to be loyal in a fight, so they use a mentally conditioned or altered alternative. It reminds me of Sparta - a small ruling population that became completely obsessed with training for war and with a certain degree of terror control over the majority of the ruled. All this time, I've seen them on more of a Roman model (allowing for a rosier interpretation of the Roman Republic than I feel is justified), a republic or democracy that had been through some nasty wars and decayed, been corrupted, or adapted to survive into a dictatorship which still maintained certain democratic traditions and both surface and real (possibly a limited degree of real voting rights among certain citizen classes, varying also according to planet [some, with more clout, may have maintained more. Conversely, some with little importance may not have been worth the trouble to change]) democratic institutions. Instead, if I go by this, that may have been some point in their history but, by this time, they were something else entirely. For both the military and the rulers (actual officials, like the president, as opposed to [let us say] Alpha engineers), the hard truth is that for the Federation to exist - to keep its subject worlds subject - it _must_ exercise a ruthless, terroristic control (in its distant past, the switch to democracy or republicanism may have been possible, but it isn't now precisely because of the steps they've taken to keep it going [a kind of "nobody likes me, everybody hates me, think I'll go eat worms" scenario]). Their numbers are too small for them to keep control otherwise. The fact that many of the characters are from Earth may have obscured this. Earth is probably one of the few planets where the majority of the population are truly loyal citizens (loyal to the Federation as their nation, perhaps, rather than loyal to the powers that be). They also probably are one of the few population pools who may be regularly spared the more brutal side of Federation power and who may even have a certain range of rights and privileges that are likely to be respected by said powers. What happened to Blake (and, later, his lawyer) supports this. Here, they're willing to use a scalpel rather than a blunt instrument - the lawyer and his wife are killed when they _know_ too much and could _prove_ it rather than earlier on. Blake will be publically discredited and shipped off alive (as are other, less political criminals from Earth) rather than shot out of hand, even the little dissident group might have been ignored if they hadn't contacted Blake or produced another rabble rouser like him - but that's not the rest of the Federation, where an entire world's population can be slaughtered because of the actions of a small handful. Dang. Excuse while I go rewrite every B7 story idea I ever had. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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Re: Blake Bashing versus Avon worship
by Helen Krummenacker 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

I think the problem comes from evaluating each man by his own standard. Avon is frequently better than the standards he claims to hold; he is selfish, but, proving he does not need his friends in a practical way, he still risks himself to help them, for instance. Blake has different standards, better in most people's eyes. Everyone who likes Avon is aware of this. Blake is an idealist. That makes his point of view more popular, his standards closer to the ones of mainstream society today. And yet the holding of several strong moral standards means at times one need will oppose the other. Can you fight for freedom and yet not give those directly opposing you a free choice without being a hypocrite to some degree? When Avon laughs at Vila as an "intelligent flea", he's being Avon. Love him or strangle him, he is what we expect and sometimes loathe. When Blake does it, he isn't being the Blake we want to see. A real hero has to be heroic whenever he is in our view. An antihero can be heroic once a season and be appealling, because rather than letting us down, he's boosting us up. In short, we have lower expectations of Avon because he's told us what to expect from him. If Blake claims moral high ground, he has to act in a way to back that claim.

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RE: Blake bashing versus Avon worship
by Mel Saxby 02 Dec '01

02 Dec '01

In my early days as a B7 fan, I actually preferred Travis. When he finally got his (possibly)just reward, I gradually transferred the focus of my interest to Avon, whom I had always liked in a casual way. But since I returned to the fandom after a very long absence, and discovered the Net, I've also come to appreciate Blake as I hadn't when I was a teenager. He isn't as obviously attractive as Avon, but there's still a lot there to appreciate. I hate to see him traduced without good cause. The standard accusation is manipulation, but I think it's more a case of him being able to persuade the others by the sheer force of his personality and convictions. As intelligent as Avon is, Blake has the upper hand over him every time. I can't think of an instance during the first or second series where Avon really got the best of the argument. Blake always seemed to have the measure of him. Yes, Avon is a great survivor, and a terrific character, and I love PD's performance, but the more I think about it, the more I admire Blake. Denying Blake's importance unbalances the series. If the depths don't seem to be there, look further. What kind of courage must it take to fight, when your mind has been ripped apart, your identity violated? I only wish I could claim such courage. Mel --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 11/24/01

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: Re: [B7L] Blake Bashing versus Avon worship
by Sally Manton 01 Dec '01

01 Dec '01

Mel said: <I've been over to Louise and Simon's newish forum a few times. A lot of lively discussions seem to be taking place. But I've noticed a strong bias towards Avon, at the expense of Blake.> and Dana: <It's all a matter of perspective - *I* think that L&S contains much unjustified Avon-bashing.> Actually, I've found it rather disconcerting to go to lists/forums other than the Lyst and FC - there *is* a lot more of the (what I find) old-fashioned bashing and swooning going on :-) Maybe it's because this is a <ahem> more mature list, and a lot of the regular posters have been here for some time and have been there, done that (or never wanted to ;-)) It *is* very unusual to find Avon being scarified in a non-fictional sense ... but Blake (along with Tarrant) *does* still draw the bulk of the unreasoned battering (sorry Dana, but from the POV of someone who adores 'em both ...). And it tends to centre round the Usual Arguments, exhibit A: Star One, and Exhibit B: Gauda Prime. The latter has *always* been a biggie, I can't count the number of fanfic stories I've read where Avon is exonerated from shooting an unarmed, innocent man (and one of the two people he cared about most) on the grounds that It's All Blake's Fault Anyway. Mel again: <Avon is intelligent, resourceful, courageous, but he is also very selfish, uncaring, avaricious. Yet he's forgiven acts forwhich Blake is condemned.> Sally's Sixth Rule - Wear Black Leather, Have a Killer Smile and Get Away with (Literally) Murder... And Dana: <Because he's a more interesting character.> Well, not really. He has more surface appeal, I'll agree happily. He's pretty, and acid-tongued and *entertainingly* nasty. When I first got back into Blake's 7, Avon was definitely my favourite character (Blake was second, but it *was* second), but the more I watched it, the more equally my interest was captured. Once I started digging under the surface, they're both complex, contradictory and fascinating characters - Blake is a more unusual creation, and therefore (IMO) that much harder to come to grips with. I agree whole-heartedly with Mel's: < I feel that to understand Avon, you have at least to appreciate Blake. Not like him, necessarily, but accept his importance to Avon, as an antagonist/friend.> I recall reading one of Judith Proctor's posts, where she suggested much the same thing - that to understand the dynamic, you have to try and look at Blake through Avon's eyes, to try and see what *he* found so fascinating and worthwhile in the man. And that leads to the question of what it is about Avon that does respond to those things ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: Blake bashing versus Avon worship (long)
by Mel Saxby 01 Dec '01

01 Dec '01

Dana wrote: It's all a matter of perspective--*I* think that L&S contains much unjustified Avon-bashing. Agreed. I can't say I like the Avon-bashing any more than the Blake-bashing. It's just the way some people seem to think he's the answer to everything. Sometimes he is, of course. But sometimes he's the problem. But I don't go for the 'Avon is a psychopathic killer with no heart' theory, anyway. He has a few tendancies that way, that's all. >Blake has faults, too, but they are more forgivable, IMO. Blake > is flawed, yes, but he is fighting a great evil in the only way he knows. Speaking only for myself, it's the WAY he goes about it that bothers me-- he needs structure. True. But Avon could have provided some of that, without necessarily needing to become a wholehearted believer in the cause. >Avon > is intelligent, resourceful, courageous, but he is also very selfish, > uncaring, avaricious. Yet he's forgiven acts for which Blake is condemned. Because he's a more interesting character. Can't really argue with that. Paul Darrow hit the jackpot with the part. But he's at his most interesting with someone strong like Blake to spark off. The two actors played well off each other, which in turn strengthened the characters. Mel Saxby [who should really learn not to post when she's pissed :-)] --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 11/24/01

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Blakes7 December 2001