Blakes7 March 2001

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96 participants
1067 discussions

Re: [B7L] Power
by Kanna Ophelia 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

I've lost track of citations, I'm sorry... <trembling lip and wobbly eyes> > > Yeah, this scene annoys the *heck* out of me. Well, all of HoK annoys > > the heck out of me, really, but the fight inevitably makes me want to > > start yelling "Kick his ass, Dayna!" And she inevitably fails, anyway. Yeah, it annoys the heck out of me when they won't listen, too. No matter how many times I yell at Soolin to fire at the end of Power and take over Scorpio, thus eventually saving the lives of everyone from Blake to Zeeona, she always wastes precious time posing with her gun in her hand instead... How many chances does she need? <sob> Not that I'm criticising the Golden One, of course. She's obviously acting for some obscure Greater Good. Dana: > In my version of this episode (aka PowerPuff), the implications of my > favorite moment in the script are fully played out. Just as Jarvik says > "...but you're a woman," she knees him in the balls. In the revised script, > she follows through with a drop-kick, teleports back herself, sorts out > the occupying force (I'm not sure if she kills Servalan though--there are > still several episodes to go) and then they can use the Time Squad docking > maneuver to get the antique spacecraft thingie onto the Liberator. And then home in time for Professor Utonium to tuck her into bed? (Dayna would make a fantastic Buttercup, come to think of it... And Servalan as Him, er, Her...) (BTW > in canon it seems to be about as easy to find a discarded spacecraft as > an empty Coke can on Earth C21.) I think the clefairies abandoned them when they brought the moon disks to earth... Wait, I think I'm getting my fandoms confused again. XXX Kanna-Ophelia Femmeslash: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/femmeslash The Pokeslash Playground: www.tvheaven.pokemon.com Diversion Tactics: www.geocities.com/diversiontactics --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using One.Net's Mail Man. http://mailman.one.net.au

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Bye for now
by Jacqueline Thijsen 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

I'm unsubbing for a while, because I just can't seem to handle discussions like we've been having anymore. I'll be asking the doctor to put me back on medication that helped me handle things a while back. Once that kicks in, I hope to be back. Jacqueline

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Re: [B7L] reasons
by Kanna Ophelia 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

The Savoyard in me wants to say something about toffee, but I'll try to resist. Susan Beth: > By the same token, then, is every piece of het fic written about the > lifestyle of every person who is in a het relationship? Should people in > het relationships get upset every time they read a book in which some het > couple does something that that reader would never do? "My husband and I > never have sex outdoors...how *dare* that writer imply het couples do! It's > just cheap masturbatory writing, it degrades me and all other hets." Exactly. I don't place any burden on femmeslash stories to accurately represent *my* "lifestyle." Arthur Dent like, I'm having immense problems working out what my own lifestyle is anyway. (Perhaps there's actually a lot of other bisexual women out there monagamously committed to other bisexual women living in different countries - if so, I'd love to talk to you...) Criticising slash for not according with steroetypes strike me as a dangerous process at best - humans are too complicated to be reduced to "lifestyles" on the basis of something as highly personal as memebrs of which sex(es) you're capable of fancying/falling head over heels in love with. I haven't read much Blakes' 7 f/f, but that I have read, I was more interested in the specifics of how, say, Jenna and Cally would react to each other in that siuation, than any idea of them representing "typical" queer women. As for slash dealing with gay issues - well, B7 isn't the only fandom out there. Shishi/palletshipping (Ash/Gary, the most common Pokemon slash pairing) is obsessed with coming out stories and overcoming homophobia etc etc. Lovely Zelda's rather cutting satire "Ash's Little Secret" was written after I complained bitterly to her about a surfeit of toffee... > That wasn't what I meant-- I meant the relative lack of f/f slash out there. There's a quite a lot of femmeslash/yuri on the net, actually. It's probably the dominant fanfic genre in the Xenaverse and Bad Girls fandom, for a start. In other fandoms, it's still there, although it's probably received with even more hostility than m/m, and is not as widespread. If you scroll down to my signature, you'll find a link to my own multifandom mailing list, which is devoted exclusively to creating a nurturing community for f/f fanfic. We've only had two Blakes' 7 stories so far - Jenna/Cally and Servalan/Dayna - but as we have very few members who even know what B7 is, this is not all that surprising... Personally, I'd welcome anyone who wants to add to the B7 quota of the list, because obviously it's more fun to read fanfic from fandoms I follow myself. And maybe I'd get a Soolin story or too... <wistful smile> I don't know if yuri reflects my lifestyle as a queer woman - partly because, Arthur Dent-like, I don't know if I even have a lifestyle as such. I just... potter along somehow, in my INFP way... Oh, and though my femmeslash list seems to be slightly dominated by bisexual and lesbian women, we do have several male listmembers, and my assistant list mummy is a heterosexual sheila. Draw what conclusions you like <smile>. XXX Kanna-Ophelia (who reads and writes f/f, m/m AND m/f, although mostly set in the Pokemon Islands.) Femmeslash: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/femmeslash The Pokeslash Playground: www.tvheaven.pokemon.com Diversion Tactics: www.geocities.com/diversiontactics --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using One.Net's Mail Man. http://mailman.one.net.au

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Re: [B7L] Re: Unlikely lust objects
by Ellynne G. 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:01:22 +0100 "Fiona Moore" <nydersdyner(a)yahoo.co.uk> writes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ellynne G. <rilliara(a)juno.com> > > >I am really annoyed with the creators of the Buffyverse for > making > > Willow a lesbian. > > > > And the _way_ they did it. One season, Willow was very > conservative > > sexually - finding out her vampire double was bi disturbed her > > considerably. > > I didn't have a problem with it myself, and in some ways that was > why-- I > know several gay people who, when they first became aware of their > sexuality, were troubled by it and as a result swung to the other > extreme-- > either becoming very heterosexually active or becoming very morally > upright, > as a panic reaction (remember, too, that the vampire Willow *was* > Willow-- > and a big red flag that Willow wasn't all straight). Oh, agreed on that point. Actually, I saw what was coming the first episode Tara showed up. In that sense, it was telegraphed. This is a side complaint not so much on the issue bur for how it was handled. That's why I compared it to the Blake episode. Avon made a choice I didn't agree with, but I saw how he made it. Willow made a choice I, personally, didn't agree with. However, unlike "Blake," there wasn't an episode where I felt I'd seen her deal with the issues she should have been dealing with - a point where she said, "This is what I used to think, but-" In the end, I felt it had more to do with the actress' complaints that Willow wasn't perceived as sexy (she was alledgedly very upset when she was left out of a 'Babes of Buffy' article Rolling Stone did) than with anyone sitting down and trying to develop the character. Let me use a more positive comparison. In DS9, Gul Dukat originally went from villain to sympathetic character (then back again, but let's skip that). It didn't work for me because they never dealt with the all the negative things they'd established about him. In the context of fiction, it _could_ have worked for me (I'm willing to be far more credulous to unlikely sounding scenarios in TV than I am in real life, so I _might_ have bought a story that tried to excuse what he'd done [unlikely, but possible if it was written well enough] but I think a better way to go would have been to more clearly show that Dukat, whether you liked him or not, was the only one who could do the job - and to show him _changing_, realizing what he had done and realizing he wished he could undo it). Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Eastercon
by Judith Proctor 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

If anyone here is going to the Eastercon (Paragon) then I'd appreciate more books for Oxfam. Several people donated some excellent books at Redemption which have been sold to raise money for Oxfam's work. It's an easy way to raise money to help some of the world's poorest people have water to feed their animals, and grain and tools to grow crops. Oxfam's work is very much about helping people to help themselves. Their disaster relief work tends to be the best publicised, but there is ongoing work in disease prevention, craft workshops for the disabled and so much more besides. Sales of books at Redemption raised around 137 pounds, but the books donated have raised even more money since; a particular thank you to the fan who donated all the Patricia Cornwall paperback novels in such lovely condition - they went like hot cakes. So did the hardbacks on decorating and many of the SF novels. Old books on topics like birds and railways never go out of fashion. Books of plays, history books, travel, etc and lots and lots of paperback novels. Collectables (Observer books, first editions, - anyone got a first edition of Enid Blyton?, books on specialist subjects, etc) will be properly valued. Most of our books sell for around a pound or two, but we recently sold one for 40 pounds. That'll pay for a whole year at school for a third-world child. I'll be selling books at Eastercon as well, so if you're there, come and have a browse. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '03 21-23 Feb 2003 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

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slash and pseudo-colonialism
by Alison Page 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Shane said >>it does bug me to think of a distorted version of my lifestyle turned into somebody else's fantasy Although I put myself on the 'pro-slash' side, I do think this is an issue that slash fans ought to consider. I can imagine (let us say) a Native American objecting to 'Cowboys and Indians' stories (or those new age books which present travesties of native american religious practice etc.). And there are hoards of other examples of people objecting to the inaccurate depiction of their lifestyles by outsiders. I myself object (vocally and regularly :-) to the distortion of working class life by patronising middle-class people. I think it is important for slash fans not to conflate the objection Shane makes in this post with the other objections we have heard (sheer dislike of homosexual people, and the defence of supposed canon) which I think can be much more easily dismissed. I would like to say to Shane that in my experience 99 percent of pro-slash fans that I have met are respectful towards gay men. I think that for many women their like of this literature is part and parcel of a tolerant lifestyle. But I know that might sound patronising, as if you should be grateful for my tolerance, and I don't mean that at all. I can't resolve this issue to my own satisfaction, let alone anyone else's. Alison ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************

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Re: [B7L] reasons
by Shane Little 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Lisa wrote: >Ah. Well, you and the penguins are welcome to read all the >socio-politico-type stories you can get your hands & flippers on. My penguins don't read, they just eat slash. >>Because you're missing out on a whole range of experience, that's >>why. > >I'm missing out on a whole range of experience by not eating fried >okra and >stewed slugs, too. There are experiences my life is definitely >richer >without. Ahem, false analogy there. Bit of a difference between political fanfic and bad food. >In my case, the fact that I read slash doesn't mean I don't read >anything >else. (Fanfic itself is a very small proportion of my reading, and I >read >both gen and slash if I come across something to my taste.) But even >if it >did -- and I know people who won't read any fanfic other than slash >-- what >of it? People aren't obligated to read what they don't like simply >because >you think they ought to have the "experience". Let's play the food analogy game further. Some people eat a balanced diet. Some people eat only candy. If I come up to one of the latter and say "you know, eating the odd salad might not be a bad thing," they're certainly not obligated to take my advice, but it's not going to do their complexion or cholesterol rate any good if they don't. No one is saying that people "ought" or "ought not" to read anything-- I'm saying that people should know that slash is only a small part of a vast amount of fanfic of varying quality. >Nor are they likely >to >derive much benefit from an experience consisting primarily of >boredom. I'm sure Neil Faulkner and the other gen writers out there are delighted to hear that their writing is boring, as compared to a PWP. >>So why exactly did you think Blake and Co. were on the run? > >*Why* they were on the run was largely immaterial to me. I don't >regard it >as a major focus of the show; any of a variety of excuses would have >done. It isn't an excuse though, it's the main theme of the show from ep 1 onwards, coming to an abrupt and bloody end in ep 52. >>Well, what is it about for you then? > >The interrelationships between the characters. (Neil, just hit the >delete >key now, OK?) Principally Blake and Avon, from my point of view, >with >peripheral interest from the others. The whole >fighting-the-Federation >business is, as far as I'm concerned, just there to give them an >excuse to >bicker, and get into situations, and get each other out of >situations, and >generally demonstrate the character dynamics, which are what I'm >watching >for. That _is_ politics, actually. >I'm not too keen on PWP in general, myself, though there are >exceptions >--some humorous stories with good dialogue can be quite diverting. A >story >which is just a sex scene I'll usually pass by, since sex per se is >something I don't find terribly interesting. If you don't find sex interesting, why read slash? >>No, it isn't the target audience, it's true. But it does bug me to >>think >>of a distorted version of my lifestyle turned into somebody else's >>fantasy > >Life is rough. You don't have jurisdiction over anyone else's >fantasies, >though if someone starts writing and distributing slash about *you*, >I'd >say you have some grounds for complaint. Are you aware that slash and art out there has been produced which actually uses the _actors'_ names and not the characters'? Another reason for them and their families to object to its production. As it stands, I doubt >whether >anyone writing slash -- especially B7 slash -- is writing about >*your* >lifestyle at all, distorted or otherwise. But if they're presenting two characters in a gay relationship, then they _are_ writing about my lifestyle. I'm a gay man in a gay relationship. Hence my concern. If somebody, say, wrote a story about a Muslim character which totally misrepresented Islam, would you say to Muslims who objected: "Oh, they weren't writing about _your_ religion"? If you don't find the >stories >believable, don't read 'em. No one says you have to. Heck, there are >plenty >of them that I don't find believable either, at various levels >ranging from >"This character wouldn't act like that," to "Men don't act like >that," all >the way through "No remotely sentient creature would act like that." So we're agreed then. Slash of course being out of character for straight characters. >>If you want to read this sort of slash as a fantasy, fair enough-- >>but it >>doesn't have much to do either with gay lifestyles _or_ with the >>programme >>itself. > >Most slash is concerned with the relationship between two, very >specific, >characters, not with "lifestyles", gay or otherwise. Um, sorry, but relationships between two characters _are_ their lifestyle. And it has just >as >much -- and just as little -- to do with the programme as any other >fanfic >which goes beyond a bald recitation of canon and includes anything >of the >author's own extrapolation. Whether that extrapolation is compatible >with >the reader's view of the characters and the show is up to the reader >and >writer concerned and will vary radically from one person to the >next. If it >doesn't work for you, it doesn't, and there is nothing wrong with >that. >Your views just don't mesh well enough for you to buy into the >author's >vision. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't write it; what clashed >horribly >for you may work perfectly for someone else. But some sorts of fanfic fit the canon better than others. And if there's no worth in a story beyond a quick wank, what's the point? It's 1984 all over again-- use porn to distract the people from the real issues and stifle discussion. Nor is one of you >"right" and >the other "wrong". Just move on to other authors whose stories are >more >suited to your taste. You're really starting to sound like Annie and Leah here. Nobody brought up right or wrong in fanfic, slash or otherwise, prior to this. And if it bothers you terribly that people >aren't >going to restrict themselves to only material of which you, >personally, >approve -- well, as I said, life is rough. You'll just have to get >used to >being bothered. Now I object to this sort of argument. Forgive me, Lisa, but you do sound exactly like Annie and Leah and their "ain't gonna change so get used to it" attitude. Supposing I told you "women are never going to get equal rights to men, you'll just have to get used to it?" Supposing I told you "racism will never go away, you'll just have to get used to it?" If something offends you, you have a choice. Either passively sit around hoping it'll go away, or stand up and make your opinions heard. I know which I'll pick. Shane "Resist the host or your oneness will be absorbed" --Zil Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015

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Re: [B7L] Re: Unlikely lust objects
by Fiona Moore 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

>From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara(a)juno.com> >Oh, agreed on that point. Actually, I saw what was coming the first >episode Tara showed up. In that sense, it was telegraphed. This is a >side complaint not so much on the issue bur for how it was handled. >That's why I compared it to the Blake episode. Avon made a choice I >didn't agree with, but I saw how he made it. Avon did make a choice, but ISTM it was made very quickly-- very shockingly so, actually. Not much chance to think it through. > Willow made a choice I, >personally, didn't agree with. However, unlike "Blake," there wasn't an >episode where I felt I'd seen her deal with the issues she should have >been dealing with - a point where she said, "This is what I used to >think, but-" I thought the Oz-returns episode actually dealt with that to some extent-- she didn't come right out and say it, but there was visibly a lot of conflict regarding her being offered the more societally acceptable relationship and still choosing Tara. >Let me use a more positive comparison. In DS9, Gul Dukat originally went >from villain to sympathetic character (then back again, but let's skip >that). It didn't work for me because they never dealt with the all the >negative things they'd established about him. Actually, speaking as someone who watched DS9 from the beginning, lost interest for a while, and then came back, I actually quite liked that aspect of it. In RL, I have to work sometimes with Germans from the prewar generation, and I find myself often in conflict over the fact that many of them seem to me to be nice, civilised and very kind people-- and yet I also know that many of them have condoned if not actually performed horrifying actions during the Nazi period. So the fact that they presented Gul Dukat (and other Cardassians) in this very schizophrenic way appeals to me-- in my experience, the same person *can* incorporate very evil and very good aspects in their personalities, and often divorce the two in very schizophrenic ways. ObB7: for the same reason, I've always been disappointed that Blake and Travis *didn't* join forces in Hostage. It would have been interesting. Oh, and FWIW: Elynne, I definitely don't see eye to eye with you or Kathryn on some issues, especially homosexuality-- but I would never call either of you sick. If people are willing to carry on a discussion in a calm and rational way, I'll respect them, whatever their faith or background. Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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(no subject)
by Alison Page 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Leah said - >>Jesus said much more about adultery and fornication in general than he ever expressed about homosexuality Agreed, but I'd go more strongly than that, even. There is condemnation of betrayal of faithfulness, and condemnation of a system that prostitutes women, but I don't believe Jesus said anything at all (pro or anti) about 'homosexuality'. Jesus, at least as reported, stressed that social convention should take a second place to personal love ('if god brings two people together, then human beings should not keep them apart'), and that if a person condemns another person's sex life it is the *condemner* not the person condemned who is at fault. In contrast to Louise I think beliefs which lack compassion can be criticised equally whether or not they are part and parcel of a religious world view, but in many cases they are imposed on that religion, rather than imposed by it IMHO. Alison ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************

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RE: [B7L] reasons
by Louise Rutter 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Shane wrote: >But if they're presenting two characters in a gay relationship, then they >_are_ writing about my lifestyle. I'm a gay man in a gay relationship. Hence >my concern. If somebody, say, wrote a story about a Muslim character which >totally misrepresented Islam, would you say to Muslims who objected: "Oh, >they weren't writing about _your_ religion"? Sorry, Shane, but I just can't see this one. Islam is a specific religion with a large set of specific written regulations which it's followers adhere to, and therefore there is a very definite 'right' and 'wrong' as far as writing about that religion goes. I just can't agree that sexual orientation falls into the same category; there are no written guidelines that all homosexuals must follow. While I don't deny that there is a definite gay lifestyle for some young gay men, I doubt it bears much resemblance to the lifestyle of gay men in their mid-to-late thirties, which is the age of the characters in most slash. I _don't_ believe that there's a specific lifestyle for gay men approaching middle age any more than I believe in a specific lifestyle for heterosexuals of the same age. Once people get past their twenties, they tend to do their own thing more than doing the trendy thing. Now, that is a completely different argument from your earlier point that you don't like your life being used as the subject of people's sexual fantasies, and as Alison said, I don't think there's a resolution to that one. Louise

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Blakes7 March 2001