Blakes7 May 2001

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84 participants
897 discussions

Re: [B7L] Orac
by Sally Manton 18 May '01

18 May '01

Dana wrote: <POV Avon, Orac is "just a machine"--in other words, doesn't even qualify for his slimline view of human rights--but shouldn't have Blake been worried about the freedom of the honest AI to think and speak?> Oh yes, but two points: Orac would most definitely come under Blake's heading of 'crew', and My Favourite Autocrat's general rule - "say whatever you like, then I'll get you to do what I want" applies. I don't think you'd easily persuade Blake about that 'honesty' bit ("you're capable of evasion, anyway.") _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Space Fall
by Sally Manton 18 May '01

18 May '01

Tavia wrote: <It's also interesting that Jenna is sent over to the Liberator (and a high assumed probability of death) with the two men without any comment either from Leylan or, for that matter, from Blake.> I've always assumed that the three of them were now under sentence of death anyway, as the ringleaders: JENNA: In which case, you can die content. AVON: [Almost laughs] Content. JENNA: Knowing you were right. So they were even more expendable than the rest. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Orac
by Jenny Kaye 17 May '01

17 May '01

Jacqui wrote: >If Orac had been given the choice in the so-named episode would it have >preferred to go with Servalan or with Blake? Orac shows enough >understanding (as distinct from awareness) to make a reasoned choice. > >(The choice might be between doing 'nothing but Federation work' or >'exploring the galaxy.) The Federation would have dismantled him to see how he worked. He would have lost his uniqueness. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Orac
by Sally Manton 17 May '01

17 May '01

<If Orac had been given the choice in the so-named episode would it have preferred to go with Servalan or with Blake?> Well, as long as he got to have a quick look at the personnel on either side, there's no competition. Blake has Avon, who becomes Orac's very favourite pet; Servalan has Travis. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: crimes and punishment
by Jenny Kaye 17 May '01

17 May '01

Iain Coleman wrote > > > > > > > > > Julia Jones wrote: > > > > > > >Julia Jones "Science is not about building a body > >of known 'facts'. It is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting > >them > > > to > > > > >a > > > > >reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever > >makes > > > > >us > > > > >feel good." - The Science of Discworld > > > > > > Yes. A lesson you have evidently failed to learn Julia. > > > > > > >Science and literary analysis are two rather different pursuits. Don't split hairs with me Iain, and stop bloody sulking. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: the limits of parody
by Jenny Kaye 17 May '01

17 May '01

Helen Krummenacker: > >Bizzarro7 said: > > > > > Deja vu. > > > > > > Welcome back, Shane. > > > > >::slapping forehead:: I knew the talk-show host name was probably a > >psuedonym. Same writing style. I think you've hit it. Eh....? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Space Fall
by Jenny Kaye 17 May '01

17 May '01

Jacqui wrote: >"Jenny Kaye" <jennycat55(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > M wrote: > > > > > >It's > > > > > also interesting that Jenna is sent over to the Liberator (and a >high > > > > > assumed probability of death) with the two men without any >comment > > > >either from Leylan > > > > If you read all of my Leylan/Raiker text analysis, you'll see that >Leylan > > wants Jenna, Avon and Blake killed. > > > > > > > > > or, for that matter, from Blake. > > > > Well, there's the promise of their sentences being quashed and Blake > > mistakenly thinks Leylan is an honest man. Blake can be a bit of an >innocent > > sometimes. > > ><snip> > >And if they believed that they would believe anything... It's true, Jacqui. He can be. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Jenny's Episode Reviews: Space Fall
by Tavia 17 May '01

17 May '01

Iain's right that Jenny's interesting review of Space Fall went rather undiscussed.... A few thoughts. >He [[Leylan]] accepts his lot and shows no signs of jealousy towards Artix, >who he appears to have an almost fatherly interest in, and wishes him well. >I bet some of you are thinking, "What a nice chap Leylan is. Just a man >doing his job like the rest of us." The one-off characters are exquisitely well-drawn in B7 as a whole. I love the subtlety with which Leylan is set up as a somewhat cynical good guy only to be demolished as the episode progresses. >Who does these transcripts? If you watch the episode (which I did before I >went over to the script page) you'll see that Raiker >is upbeat about it. The B7 transcripts are a fantastic resource, but you're right that they aren't always perfect, and in this case I think Raiker is indeed looking forward to his job of bullying the prisoners. >LEYLAN: [: [Less than enthusiastically] All right. >Again this is the trouble with fan transcripts, they also write what they >think they see (remember people: a fan transcript *isn't* an authoritative >version-- take everything but the lines with a grain of salt). Let's have >the line again. I'm not so sure here (having also watched the episode). I think Leylan *is* somewhat reluctant to allow Raiker a free rein. Nevertheless he does it. I feel this is an important point: it's not good intentions but actions that count. Leylan from time to time in this episode, and also in Cygnus Alpha, shows muddled good intentions, but on balance the outcomes that he supports (tacitly or overtly) are evil. >He's using Artix because he's an innocent. People will believe what he >says. If any shit hits the fan Artix will be there to say, "Yes it was Mr >Raiker who shot the prisoners. No, Captain Leylan wasn't there. I don't even >think he knew what Raiker was doing." What an utter bastard Leylan is. I think this one is just chance, Artix happens to be there. But I do agree that there is an element in the episode as a whole of Leylan initially trying to protect Artix from corrupt influences (most clearly in the scene in the corridor with Leylan and Raiker discussing suppressants and the woman prisoner), then later giving up and allowing Artix to take partial responsibility for events he had no part in by sending the report (in Cygnus Alpha). >Now at first I thought he [[Raiker]] did it to spite Blake. But that isn't actually it >at all. He does because he knows that if Blake has surrendered there is a >strong chance that Leylan is in the computer room watching the screen. He's >done it to implicate Leylan. If there is any comeback over this then Leylan >can no longer say that he never saw Raiker kill a prisoner. This is giving >Raiker more protection. I hadn't thought of it that way. I think the most plausible reason is that Raiker, true psychopath that he is, has been enjoying shooting prisoners and doesn't want to stop his little game. But the motivation might well be mixed as you suggest. >>[Leylan sees what's happened on the screen and doesn't seem impressed.] >As I've said above, it isn't a case of him not being impressed. It's a >case of him not liking the fact that he is 'seen' to witness something he >would prefer to have happened out of his sight. I think you're right that Leylan doesn't want to have overtly witnessed Raiker's methods. He'd still rather turn a blind eye. >Also note that >Blake is still appealing to Leylan's decency, apparently not realising that >this is a vain hope. It is interesting that Blake instinctively believes in the integrity of someone who must be considered to be his enemy. Just like he never quite got round to believing that the Administration would transport him on false charges. Yet he's usually quite a good judge of character. >He's sending Krell to his death. But Leylan doesn't care. He's only >interested in getting Liberator. This is certainly the clearest indication in the whole episode of Leylan's *direct* callousness. If he really thought the earlier two were rescuable he should have sent an armed group of a size capable of attempting to deal with the menace. Sending Krell alone is pointless. >...there is something else >going on here. This is a legitimate way of getting rid of the three >'witnesses' and he will not be seen to be directly backing down over the >report he has told Raiker he intends to fill out. With the three 'witnesses' >dead there isn't going to be a report. I hadn't seen this but it's certainly a plausible motivation. The straightforward answer that the prisoners have less rights than his crew, and are also more dispensible for the safe running of the ship, also appears possible to me. >>RAIKER: Right. At least we'll have tried. >Interesting response. For Raiker it means "at least we'll have tried" to get >the ship. But he is also taking up Leylan's pretended concern about the >three lost men. He is basically saying, "I'm back on side. I accept you're >the boss". Certainly there are subtexts here of co-operation to mutual advantage. >Then a close up of Laylan's face. He is staring Raiker in the eyes. >>RAIKER: Yes sir. >Interesting exchange that. Leylan is saying "kill them." Again I didn't see this; in fact I saw rather the opposite, ie the look warning Raiker not to act precipitously. Can't see how one can tell either way, though.... Certainly Raiker's first action is to shoot at Blake, but I'd assumed that was just personal animosity coming out. >This is wrong. Raiker fires and Blake falls to the ground to get out of >firing rang banging his shoulder as he does so. The pain is from the fall >not a shot. Again I can't see how you can tell. I've just gone and watched this bit again, and the implication appears to be that the shot grazed Blake's shoulder. The absence of blood is a bit odd, but there are plenty of people killed/injured during the series without any obvious blood. (I figured that they'd run out of budget at this point.) If Blake injured himself falling the pain would probably not be in the shoulder, but more likely in the wrist (and he's a hero, he doesn't feel pain just from banging his shoulder....) >So to to sum up, in Leylan and Raiker we get what looks like a straightforward >comment on the banality of evil, which turns out to be something more >complex. On the face of it, it looks like Leylan is just a good guy who's >been worn down by too many years of doing a lousy, dead-end job (hence his >interest in seeing Artix escape the same trap), and Raiker is a man who's >turned nasty under the same circumstances. I think there's an element of truth to the former. Leylan is a decent man turned cynical and indifferent by a job that's taught him not to value human rights. >Raiker is even nastier than he first looks. He's not >bitter because he hates his job; he's actually getting off on what he does. Agreed. Raiker appears to enjoy bullying, inflicting pain and killing. I don't get the impression that there's any influence of bitterness regarding his job; in fact, I'd say he enjoys the job. >This subtext concerns just two one-off characters. Imagine the level of >complexity that is going on between the regulars. This show has low >production values, but the script intricacies are breathtaking. Where the >scripts and characterisation is concerned Blake's 7 is a class act. Agreed. Though in Space Fall, the famed low production values work to the advantage of portraying a dark and dingy rust-bucket of a ship (and an excellent contrast to the light gleaming Liberator). Tavia

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Re: [B7L] Re: Space Fall
by Jenny Kaye 17 May '01

17 May '01

M wrote: > >It's > > > also interesting that Jenna is sent over to the Liberator (and a high > > > assumed probability of death) with the two men without any comment > >either from Leylan If you read all of my Leylan/Raiker text analysis, you'll see that Leylan wants Jenna, Avon and Blake killed. > > > or, for that matter, from Blake. Well, there's the promise of their sentences being quashed and Blake mistakenly thinks Leylan is an honest man. Blake can be a bit of an innocent sometimes. > > > > >Also when they're sent Blake says this is the other option to execution, so > >they have no qualms about killing a woman. Oh no. Or raping her. I think on Blake's side he > >doesn't complain, because they might have killed her if he'd said she > >shouldn't go. Well that's what Raiker effectively says. Cheers Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Jenny's Episode Reviews: Space Fall
by Jenny Kaye 17 May '01

17 May '01

Stephen Date wrote: > >--- Dana Shilling wrote: > > > Tavia said: > > > > This is certainly the clearest indication in the > > > whole episode of Leylan's > > > > *direct* callousness. If he really thought the > > > earlier two were rescuable > > > > he should have sent an armed group of a size > > > capable of attempting to deal > > > > with the menace. You don't use brute force to counteract a force you don't understand. If he had sent a large force into there they would have all died. 1/That would have reflected very badly on Leylan. 2/He's too smart to do such a thing. Sending Krell alone is pointless. > > > It's hard to tell how many troops he has available > > > for deployment--some > > > died or were wounded in the mutiny, One dies. Gan kills him. and Leylan > > > certainly has to keep > > > the remaining prisoners closely guarded. He might > > > not have anyone to > > > spare. You just up the drug level. > >I suspect that Leylan is trying to redeem himself by > >salvaging the Liberator only to find he's bitten off > >more than he can chew. Redeem himself? From what he says in that scene, he's only interested in the money. I suspect he's torn between > >giving it up as a bad job and not losing face in front > >of Raiker. So he sends Krell which is a bad compromise > >between the two. No. He tells Krell to "get across there as fast as you can." At that point Raiker is on the flight deck. As Krell goes across Leylan signals Raiker to join him. He wants Raiker there so that he can ask for his opinion on what is undoubtedly going to happen to Krell. He has sent Krell into the trap so that he can use him to gather more information about what killed the others. Evil is usually a word I will avoid using because it has a lot of religious connotations. There is no such thing as innate evil. Evil is always imposed by an outside force. And it is always human. Leylan is a very evil man. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Blakes7 May 2001