Blakes7 July 2001

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55 participants
273 discussions

Re: [B7L] Torture in the Federation
by Sally Manton 25 Jul '01

25 Jul '01

Ellynne wrote: <I'm not sure if Cally told them anything or not just because she doesn't act like it later. It seems like, if she had been forced to betray the others (even if she couldn't help it), she's the sort to suffer a lot of guilt over betraying companions.> Mmmm ... maybe, maybe not. After all, she does some fairly unfriendly things to them while Under The (Alien) Influence, and we don't see her feeling much guilt (or anything else, it's oh, like 'been there, done that) about that. If Cally's an experienced dissident, she probably knows enough about the Federation methods to know that she was no more to blame than she was for running amuck in The Web. And Blake would be the last one to blame someone for breaking ... <Also, I'm not sure if it wouldn't have effected how the others treated her, especially Avon, who's not big on others betraying him.> Agreed, but again from SLD, there's no sign that they blame Blake for 'betraying' his former friends when mind-raped. Bearing in mind we don't know what she 'confessed' to (bear in mind that she might not even *know* what she told Travis, if the machine attacks the mind, the victim may have no memory of what they've said), it's possible that - as long as any damage was contained - they saw it as no more her fault than Blake's (yes, even Avon :-). He's still detached enough from Cally to look at the whole thing unemotionally). <Based on Rumors and Killer, I suppose Avon had been interrogated before and was reasonably certain of his ability to withstand it (especially with the added psychological edge that _he_ controlled when it stopped [give or take a couple minutes]). Perhaps Avalon had had a little too much Federation PR and the interrogation could be beaten?> No, I don't think so. Blake is *also* certain that she will tell Travis everything she knows (and, for all she's a drip, I *do* see the woman who started rebel groups on 30 worlds as a tough lady. Tougher than Cally at least, IMO, and quite possibly tougher than Avon). Neither 'Anna' (or the figment of imagination known as Anna) nor Avon would appear to have been as important to the authorities as Avalon or Blake, even if said authorities did think they were political. Presumably Anna's reports, while playing up the political angle, played *down* the danger involved to the PWB (this is only sensible, because if she made it sound *too* big, no amount of stalling on her part would have stopped the ersatz-Gestapo moving in before she was ready). <How did I get off on this subject? I can think of other possibilities that are making me feel ill, not to mention making me hope Cally managed to block out most of the experience.> I have a feeling Cally's mental powers would enable her to do that (after all, having various Uglies messing about inside her head would be pretty horrible to, but she seems able to shut the memory of that away). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [B7L] Frame capture vote results
by J MacQueen 25 Jul '01

25 Jul '01

>From: Lisa Williams <lisa(a)eroicafans.org> >Federation politics aren't especially photogenic, though, thinking from a >frame-capture point of view. Must be the shirt... Of course it's the shirt, and I suggested that for exactly the reason above. How can we doubt it? <smile> Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [B7L] Torture in the Federation
by Ellynne G. 25 Jul '01

25 Jul '01

On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:22:38 +0000 Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson(a)mcr1.poptel.org.uk> writes: > 1. What did Cally tell them during her torture. [snip] Although the teleport range seems like something she would have told them and it also seems like Federation torture was pretty effective, I'm not sure if Cally told them anything or not just because she doesn't act like it later. It seems like, if she had been forced to betray the others (even if she couldn't help it), she's the sort to suffer a lot of guilt over betraying companions. Also, I'm not sure if it wouldn't have effected how the others treated her, especially Avon, who's not big on others betraying him. Actually, while on the subject, Avon _acted_ pretty cool on the issue, but I wonder if that was how he was really feeling? In other words, how did the guy who believed his true love had been tortured to death in an attempt to make her betray him feel about having another woman (who he had some responsibility towards) captured and tortured in an attempt to make her betray him (along with incidental others)? Which brings up not only Avon's resistance to torture (we expect that of him) but Anna's supposed resistance, something neither Avon (whose view of those he doesn't admit caring about is sometimes a little distorted) nor Grant seemed to find unbelievable. Based on Rumors and Killer, I suppose Avon had been interrogated before and was reasonably certain of his ability to withstand it (especially with the added psychological edge that _he_ controlled when it stopped [give or take a couple minutes]). Perhaps Avalon had had a little too much Federation PR and the interrogation could be beaten? Or perhaps it could be beaten by someone with the right background (take the Bujold books where various characters have an artificial [and lethal] allergy to interrogation drugs). Possibly what happened to Blake, the breakdown and restructuring of much of his personality, wasn't really an interrogation tool. The memory loss may have been an inevitable side effect the Federation had to accept if they were going to use him as a PR puppet. Which still begs the question of whether Cally could have withstood it and whether or not she did. If the teleporter used some kind of observable energy beam and if the Federation had gotten enough information from its own attempts to develop the technology, they might have been able to make a reasonable calculation (semi-confirmed by observation). It's an interesting question, and I'm going to go nuts not having the answer. > > 2. What did Federation torture methods consist of? We saw in S-L-D > them preparing some sort of liquid, but we learned very little of > what > actually was done. Any ideas? The traditional combinations of pain and psychological manipulation, from what we see of Shrinker. Drugs seem to have played a part (although whether 'truth serums,' to make people spill the beans, or [if we assume there were ways of protecting against those] other drugs to aid in interrogation [drugs that limit the body's ability to block pain, addictive substances, things that limit mental alertness). How did I get off on this subject? I can think of other possibilities that are making me feel ill, not to mention making me hope Cally managed to block out most of the experience. Suffice it to say, if there's something hideous and nasty, it's probably mentioned in Shrinker's handbook. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Frame capture vote results
by Sally Manton 25 Jul '01

25 Jul '01

Lisa wrote: <Having done my best to do justice to Jarriere, I shall endeavor to do no less for Og.> and you did an absolutely *fabulous* job with the Jarriere Collection, he looked wonderful in all of them. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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clones
by jacquispeel＠netscape.net 25 Jul '01

25 Jul '01

There 'must be' reasonable similarities between humans and Aurons - even if you discount the 'they never specifically mentioned any medical differences' thesis (blood groups would be one example - some groups now are 'very much rarer' than others in a given locality) - when Servalan wants to have a batch of infants 'developed' there is no stated/obvious alteration of the equipment's settings. BTW - were the Clonemasters actually destroyed as a result of the Intergalactic War, or did they decide to make use of the confusion arising to disappear 'elsewhere'? I presume the military high command would send out a 'general emergency medical alert' once it became evident that there was a full-scale war. The Clonemasters might have been planning to take themselves out of general view beforehand - the events surrounding IMIPAK could convince them of the necessity of such a course of action - so when the opportunity provided itself they made full use of it. Jacqui __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

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Re: Frame capture vote results
by Steve Rogerson 25 Jul '01

25 Jul '01

> Lisa wrote: > <And the winners are: > Weapon > Horizon > Voice From the Past > Animals Yippee! Og pics galore. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption 03, 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent Celebrating 25 years of Blake's 7 and 10 years of Babylon 5 http://www.smof.com/redemption

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Re: [B7L] Auron Psychoanalysis
by Ellynne G. 24 Jul '01

24 Jul '01

On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:12:34 -0600 Ellynne G. <rilliara(a)juno.com> writes: > > > On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:04:43 -0400 "Dana Shilling" > <dshilling(a)worldnet.att.net> writes: > > Ellynne G. said: > > > > > Right at this point, it seems more likely that Cally and Zelda > > were not > > > necessarily clones in the sense of Dolly but that they were > > artificially > > > created twins (compared to actual cloning, it's much simpler to > do > > this > > > with a fertilized egg cell) being raised by their biological > > parents. We > > > can assume _biological_ parents because the image the stone > threw > > at > > > Cally was based not on her memories but on stone's image of her. > > Actually I think they retconned the whole cloning bit after > Harvest > > of > > Kairos was made. > > Aw, but why take the easy way out? > > However, it seems worth pointing out that, if Cally and Zelda were > clones of someone, there's no mention of the senior or original > version (or even a "Zelda of the XYZ series"). > > > > > > 3. While Servalan expresses surprise that Frantor is the normal, > > > biological child of her father, I think Servalan's idea of > family > > values > > > is distorted enough that we could discount most of it in > relation > > to her > > > own culture [,,,]In relation to a > > > foreign, isolationist culture she's had no contact with except > for > > one > > > rebel, it can be dismissed without supporting evidence. > > But Servalan wouldn't have to depend on her own personal knowledge > > of Auron; presumably there would be generally known information, > > plus the briefing books she would receive as Supreme Commander. > > True, but 1) Servalan's briefing on Frantor was incomplete and 2) > This would be far from the first time an important leader on an > important (to her) mission didn't so much as glance through a > culturegram. Given the incomplete success rate on a lot of her > plans, I'm not sure how much homework she does. > > > > > >Collective care centers beat some of the > > > options, but they shouldn't be a society's first choice on how > to > > raise > > > large numbers of its population given alternatives. > > Assuming for the sake of argument that the nuclear family is the > > best way to raise children, Auron might still adopted an inferior > > alternative. > > > There have been several attempts by people adopting various styles > of commune living to adopt a communal child raising style as well. > But, last I checked, they tended to be unsuccessful and were > abandoned pretty quickly. Also, in cases where it was the only > choice (orphanages and such), there's plenty of documentation on the > weaknesses (failure to thrive comes leaping to mind). To > deliberately adopt it as the way of raising a major portion of the > population without arguable need (especially for the Aurons, who > seem to put a high value on warm and fuzzy) seems unlikely. But > then, I tend to see kindergarten as applied social Darwinism, so I > am not unprejudiced. > > > Me: > > > And do Auronar > > > > think of Terran h-saps as the same species, > > > > a related species, a different species? > > > > Ellynne: > > > > > > There's evidence of genetic similarity, but how much > > > anyone's willing to admit to it seems to vary from episode to > > episode. > > Avon and Cally have a fair number of children in fanfic, but I'm > not > > sure > > that Auronar and Terran h.sapiens are interfertile. > > > I tend to think Aurons were a different subspecies of human at most, > since Cally was acceptable as an organ donor to the Chengans (if she > had a truly separate evolutionary history, farmyard animals would > have been genetically closer and less likely to cause tissue > rejection than she was - not to mention have organs that acted more > like the human ones). > > As I said, I think Cally's attitude, along with the others, seems to > fluctuate. Sometimes she seems to consider herself nonhuman and, > other times, she seems to be bothered when the others consider her > too alien. I do agree that Auron Isolationists (and perhaps Aurons > in general?) were likely to play down the relationship or deny it > entirely. > > Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Frame capture vote results
by Marian de Haan 24 Jul '01

24 Jul '01

Sally and Una: >> ... which underOg are we going to vote in next time <g>? Sorry, but not even for the scenes showing off the eyelashes am I going to vote for Power ...<< >It does have high irony value, however. > >What about 'Time Squad'?< Endorsed. (I'd nominate Volcano, but in view of my longing for more S1 episodes...) Marian

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Carry on b7
by Deborah Day 24 Jul '01

24 Jul '01

This email was delivered to you by The Free Internet, a Business Online Group company. http://www.thefreeinternet.net --------------------------------------------------------------- Now this has really touched a nerve - the two things had so much in common - extremely popular, derided by the powers that be, cheap sets etc, quality writing. Maybe Neil could do a proper script?? I still have fond memories of both Molesworth and the Avon's Gardening diary - I am sure he could do it justice. I think Kenneth Williams should be Orac though, I can just hear Orac saying Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me! Debbie

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Auron Psychoanalysis
by Dana Shilling 24 Jul '01

24 Jul '01

How does being cloned affect Cally (and other Auronar, of course)? In Harvest of Kairos Cally sees "her mother and father" in the Sopron, although presumably she wouldn't have one. Are clones raised in "cheaper by the dozen" nuclear families or in collective care centers? And do Auronar think of Terran h-saps as the same species, a related species, a different species? -(Y)

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Blakes7 July 2001