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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Re: democracy
by Sally Manton 28 Aug '01

28 Aug '01

Tony: <I dont believe democracy will work at all. it doesn't even work on our planet, let alone a whole lot of them. I believe it will just follow our earth political systems or a pseudo democracy, but really an oligarchical system.> <g> what's that saying about the only good thing you can say about modern democracy is that it's better than anything else that's been tried? and: <Another facet or revolutions, is that almost in every occasion, the replacing system is just as oppressive or holds the same political results or practises in some way. So, people under the federation would have just ended up as before.> and Natasa answered: <What are you suggesting then, that nothing could be changed and that Blake shouldn't have fought at all?> Certainly, the fall of the Federation is not going to usher in an immediate modern democracy with all the trappings ... it's going to be a long road getting the idea of even basic human rights back again. But they have to start somewhere ... given what we see of the Federation's abuses even *before* the last-gasp ugliness of the Pylene program, the chances that it will get better - slowly, possibly painfully, but significantly - are really rather good IMO. <As for Blake himself, I don't think he'd want any share of power in the post-Federation government.> Absolutely agreed. He'd do it *if he had to* (he was always prepared to do what he saw as his own duty), but [a] I don't believe he would have supported any new centralised government anyway, would have opposed it very strongly IMO, and [b] autocratic though he is, he doesn't actually show any desire for power or political reward (Pressure Point, Voice). PS - is it my faulty memory, or have the few people we've had on this Lyst *from* the ex-Soviet bloc, like Natasa and Hellen, *all* been Blake fans? :-) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [B7L] Re: democracy
by Natasa Tucev 28 Aug '01

28 Aug '01

Tony wrote: >I dont believe democracy will work at all. it doesn't even work on our >planet, let alone a whole lot of them. I believe it will just follow our >earth political systems or a pseudo democracy, but really an oligarchical >system. > >Another facet or revolutions, is that almost in every occasion, the >replacing system is just as oppressive or holds the same political results >or practises in some way. So, people under the federation would have just >ended up as before. What are you suggesting then, that nothing could be changed and that Blake shouldn't have fought at all? Czeslaw Milosz observed (in the era of the communist regimes): In the East, if you say certain things, you can get killed. In the West, you can say whatever you like, but no one gives a damn. At least 'democracies', as Milosz saw them, tend to deaden a threatening message rather than its author. 'Not give a damn' might be somewhat better than getting a bullet in the back of your head. Blake fights against a regime which I think fits the former of Milosz's observations. I agree that the latter is still far from perfect, but hopefully one doesn't have to fight it with weapon. As for Blake himself, I don't think he'd want any share of power in the post-Federation government. I don't think he'd fit into any system. He'd always remain a rebel and a misfit. He'd probably be a fierce critic and a pain in the neck to the new government, and they'd soon pronounce him an outlaw again or lock him up. Or at least this is how I like my Blake, straight, with no sugar. N.

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Re: [B7L] Re:democracy
by Alison Page 27 Aug '01

27 Aug '01

Sally said - >Britain basically suspended >*all* elections for the duration of the Second World War (and habeas corpus >got a fair old bashing as well) There were by-elections in Britain during the 2WW, to replace MPs if they died or had to retire, but there wasn't a general election and fascist parties were banned for the duration too. Also a cross-party coalition was in power, so things were far from normal. Alison

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Re: [B7L] Re:democracy
by Natasa Tucev 27 Aug '01

27 Aug '01

Helen wrote: >Which means missing the point of democracy; you have to persuade the >others it is urgent. Once the Federation is replaced, there will >doubtlessly be other urgent problems. Do people learn to vote on them, >or does the person with the most power say "We do it my way, for now"? >If that happens, democracy never has a chance. >Begin as you mean to continue. > Generallly I agree with you. I just sympathize with Blake's impatience in certain situations. I think we have all experienced how annoying it can be when you have to persuade others about something that for you goes without saying. You, for instance, probably feel that some environmental issues are not negotiable. In Blake's case, think of slavery. I don't think he'd be very sympathetic to those who advocated it after the revolution, or that he would allow any voting over it - he'd simply abolish it. >> Does anyone remember if >> there is any mention of democratic elections within the federation itself? >> - Iain >> >I don't think there is, but one thing that makes me think there is some >pretense of elections is that Blake's first work was with the Freedom >Party. Doesn't the word 'party' politically imply that there is room >political participation among 'the people' and some form, however >rigged, of election? Not necessarily. The fact that it's called a party does not have to imply that it's officially registered or legal - but it could imply Blake's initial desire to make it legal, i.e., his desire to fight for political power peacefully. N.

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RE: [B7L] Re: Avon Algebra
by jacquispeel＠netscape.net 27 Aug '01

27 Aug '01

Betty Ragan <ragan(a)sdc.org> wrote: >Dana Shilling wrote: > >> This is from Star One: >> AVON: Show me a man who believes in anything >> and I will show you a fool >> >> Rumours: >> Of all the things I knew myself to be, I never >> recognized the fool >> >> So, does that mean that by that point he believed in >> something? > >[LOL!] Well, "if A then B" does not actually imply "if B then A," so >the logical answer is "not necessarily." :) I do suspect, alas, that he >*did*, in fact, belive in Anna... Which did turn out to be pretty >foolish, not that I'm blaming him... > > >[apologies if you get this twice, Dana...] > >-- >Betty Ragan ** ragan(a)sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ And early on Avon says 'money is the only reality' Jacqui __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

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RE: Re: [B7L] Jarriere sighting
by jacquispeel＠netscape.net 27 Aug '01

27 Aug '01

Harriet Monkhouse <hflysator(a)jarriere.demon.co.uk> wrote: >Stephen wrote: >> Terminal: A prelude >> >>Funereal Music (Wagner's death march from the >>Gottedamerung or the Space Command theme from B7) >> >>A Federation battle cruiser descends onto the surface >>of Terminal watched by Jarriere and a mutoid. Jarriere >>is clad in golfing clothes. The mutoid holds his golf >>club bag. Finally it lands. A door opens and a ramp >>descends. Servalan, clad in a charming, if >>impracticable, off the corner number walks down the >>ramp followed by assistants in the tasteful garb >>favoured by Federation personnel on Terminal. > >Hurrah! Another one for the Jarriere website whenever I work out how to >do a website, I hope? >-- >Harriet > So what would the character's 'theme tunes' be if they had them? Jacqui __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

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RE: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Algebra
by jacquispeel＠netscape.net 27 Aug '01

27 Aug '01

Kathryn Andersen <kat(a)welkin.apana.org.au> wrote: >On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 04:50:00PM -0400, jacquispeel(a)netscape.net wrote: >> And early on Avon says 'money is the only reality' > ><pedantic> >"Wealth is the only reality. And the only way to obtain wealth is to >take it away from somebody else. Wake up, Blake! You may not be >tranquilized any longer, but you're still dreaming." > -- Kerr Avon (Blake's 7: Spacefall [A2]) ></pedantic> > >Hmmm, I wonder what a Blake's 7/The Matrix crossover would be like...? > >Kathryn Andersen I was quoting from memory Jacqui __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

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RE: [B7L] Re: democracy
by jacquispeel＠netscape.net 27 Aug '01

27 Aug '01

Helen Krummenacker <avona(a)jps.net> wrote: >> Does anyone remember if >> there is any mention of democratic elections within the federation itself? >> - Iain >> >I don't think there is, but one thing that makes me think there is some >pretense of elections is that Blake's first work was with the Freedom >Party. Doesn't the word 'party' politically imply that there is room >political participation among 'the people' and some form, however >rigged, of election? > > There is a saying to the effect that any State with the word 'Democratic' in its official country title usually isn't. Is Blake trying to create not necessarily a more 'democratic' state/Federation but one which is more responsive/less hostile to the people it governs - two different things. Jacqui __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

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Re: [B7L] Re: democracy
by Sally Manton 27 Aug '01

27 Aug '01

Helen wrote: <I don't think there is, but one thing that makes me think there is some pretense of elections is that Blake's first work was with the Freedom Party. Doesn't the word 'party' politically imply that there is room political participation among 'the people' and some form, however rigged, of election?> Not necessarily. Bran Foster implies that the Freedom Party was one of many 'activist groups', and that they worked pretty much in secret dissidence (they were betrayed and Blake captured). The name could be a deliberate archaic echo, born of Blake's interest in and knowledge of history; a self-conscious reference to the term used when there *were* open and free political associations. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [B7L] Re:democracy
by Sally Manton 27 Aug '01

27 Aug '01

Helen K wrote: <Once the Federation is replaced, there will doubtlessly be other urgent problems. Do people learn to vote on them, or does the person with the most power say "We do it my way, for now"? If that happens, democracy never has a chance.> Now there are urgent problems and there are urgent *problems* ... and then there's war, which cannot be run by a show of hands (the Athenians tried something fairly close, and it was a disaster). Britain basically suspended *all* elections for the duration of the Second World War (and habeas corpus got a fair old bashing as well) - basically suspending democracy as we know it while busy defending it. Yes, the USA held an election in the middle of the Civil War - but that is the exception that proves the rule, something that historians hold up as a quite unprecedented (and rarely if ever emulated) act - an example of what an amazing thing a *stable* political system could manage. Neither the B7 universe nor the Liberator comes under my heading of a stable political system anyway <g> and the 'one-potato' system of counting heads may seem simpler but with this lot would simply mean that the muddle-and-go-nowhere of S3 started two years early and Travis squashed them flat while Vila and Avon (at the very *least*) were still arguing the toss. The point - for me - about both the British suspension of democracy as and the Blakean variety on board the Liberator is that in both cases the people involved (the British public in general, and Our Heroes) basically agreed to said suspension (and yes they did. Even Avon. They could have refused to obey him, individually or together, at any point, and they chose not to, he never *had* to force the issue or resort to threats). Whatever came after the federation would certainly *not* be democracy as we know it, IMO - the total lack of experience with the concept in its modern, complicated form, plus the mental and spiritual effect on every citizen within the Federation of *living* within such a corrosive society, would make it impossible. It would be a harsher, more flawed system than any of us live in (or a myriad of different independent systems all working things out in different, faltering, sometimes bloodied ways). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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