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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Shadows of Blake
by Mac4781＠aol.com 03 Aug '01

03 Aug '01

Mistral quoting Sally: > > At the time, from what I can see, it's just a heist for the riches it will > > bring *them*. > > Possibly for the others, but I don't think that's true of Avon; We get the following exchange about stealing Feldon crystals in GAMES. It gives an indication of how some of them stand in the greed vs. hurting the Federation category: AVON: You could run anything on it in theory. That's why the Federation is staking so heavily. The consignment we are after is worth approximately nine hundred million. TARRANT: Let's get one thing straight. We want it to use, not to sell. We've seen what it can do. We can't risk it getting back to the Federation. DAYNA: Yes, agreed. VILA: Not by me, it's not. You steal for your reasons, I'll steal for mine. SOOLIN: Why not get it first and quarrel about it later? Carol

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Re: [B7L] Shadows of Blake
by Mac4781＠aol.com 03 Aug '01

03 Aug '01

Sally wrote: > Klyn is a receptionist in a vigilante police base Sally, you've said that it's a vigilante police base before. How can it be a vigilante police base when Arlen goes from being a wanted criminal to a member of the security team? There's also this conversation that recognizes Blake is in charge and that Arlen has joined *his* team. ARLEN: Do you want him killed?! BLAKE: No, of course not! When he knows as much about this as you do now, he'll join us, like you did. ARLEN: He passed the test, then. BLAKE: I'm satisfied. There's also the fact that it would be very dangerous for Blake to lure Avon onto the base if it is a vigilante base. Avon has a "particularly" large price on his head. If this is a vigilante base, it's a very dangerous place for him to be. Any passing bounty hunter might kill him to collect the reward. Carol

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Re: [B7L] Shadows of Blake
by Natasa Tucev 03 Aug '01

03 Aug '01

Stephen wrote: >> Someone on the >> Lyst suggested the name of the episode, apart from >> the drug, also alludes to >> the Terra Nostra being the Federation's 'shadow'. > ><bows modestly> Oops, sorry, Stephen, I forgot it was you. At any rate, I thought it was a very shrewd observation. >I think that Blake's darker side had been hinted at >earlier in Mission to Destiny, Breakdown and Bounty >for example. I can't remember anything naughty Blake did in Bounty - apart from breaking Sarkoff's records. Could you remind me? >I think Boucher is more >detached from Blake. Nation's Blake is a bit like the >wartime view of Churchill - shown fighting for freedom >in a heroic light. Boucher's version is more like >Churchill as shown by modern historians - yes he was a >good guy but he could be ruthless, nasty and just >plain wrong on occasions. So I think that Boucher is a >revisionist, subverting the orthodox view I'm all for subversion - but what do you get when you subvert the idea that people should oppose totalitarianism and big, powerful states which tend to control the world? I view B7 as a subversive discourse in itself. Practically all of the pop-culture heroes of today are law abiders, police officers, star fleet officers, army officers, always upholding status quo. On the other hand, B7 confronts us with a world order which is fundamentally wrong and which *has* to be opposed. I don't think you can compare this to Churchill - he also defended status quo against the bad guys. Even Robin Hood doesn't jeopardize the given order, since he just opposes the usurper of the throne, not the concept of the throne in itself. The idea behind B7 is much more radical. No, I don't think it was a good idea to subvert Blake and everything he stands for. N.

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Re: [B7L] Shadows of Blake
by Sally Manton 03 Aug '01

03 Aug '01

Mistral wrote: <Not *solely* murder for gain, because it will hit the Federation in the pocketbook,> but there's not a word to indicate that Our Heroes think of it that way, just that they will make a huge amount out of it (and make it from Zerok, since that's who they're stealing it from if I recall correctly?) <and the guards are IIRC Federation -> But none of our lot know that at the time Soolin's killing them. <seems a fairly acceptable method of guerilla rebellion as such things go.> In hindsight, yes (well, except that they lost it all to Her Sleeriness). At the time, from what I can see, it's just a heist for the riches it will bring *them*. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [B7L] Shadows of Blake
by Sally Manton 03 Aug '01

03 Aug '01

Stephen wrote: <What about Bek ? Or Zil, who risks her life to protect a child ? Or Norl in City ? Klyn ? Deva ? Hob ? None of us is wholly good (he said in an uncharacteristic outbreak of Augustinian theology) but I think that none of the characters I've cited were exactly card carrying members of the dark side.> Oh. Um. I'll grant you Deva (I like Deva, I love Deva's interaction with Blake and I'd adore seeing how Blake's two computer experts got on :-)) The rest I'd call the 'middling' rather than the bad: Bek probably more in my own mind than from what he does (which - apart from his determination to protect his own - isn't really good or bad); Zil's more instinctive, a mother animal rather than an actual moral creature; Norl may have a good purpose, but his methods of getting what he wants from Tarrant and Vila are pretty unedifying; Klyn is a receptionist in a vigilante police base, and doesn't really show any leaning towards good or bad; Hob is a rather less than impressive rebel who seems unable to say no to either his corpse-kicking men or to Sula. None of them come under the heading of 'essentially good' (which of course is very different from *wholly* good) at least, not for me :-) I admit freely, I haven't seen any of Star Cops and don't recall much, good, bad or ambiguous about Leela in Dr Who (hi, Louise, I did read your post :-)) so was talking about Boucher in his role as B7 writer *only.* I defer on those to anyone who has seen them ... <I think Boucher casts her as the conscience of the group so she gets to ask all the awkward questions like "have we the right to cause all these deaths" and "who died and made Avon the Angel of Retribution".> I actually agree with this, but am still firmly of the opinion that she only got lumbered with it because *someone* had to after they lost David Jackson (Jan Chappell is a far better actor - in fact, I'd place her among the best, *the* very best of the female cast - but couldn't do unaffected moral certainty like he could); she was chosen because the other three were out of the question (Vila with a attack of the High Moral Ground would be rather fun, though), and she kept it because the new two would be no better. But it does come over to me as affected (as it also does in Breakdown) and a tad superior. Which brings us to ... <I think you once pointed out we were all issued with slightly different versions of the tapes.> True; I really don't *insist* that everyone agree that I Am Right - at least not all the time :-). <One of the few bits I dislike about Deathwatch is that Tarrant who has stabbed a man in the back in Powerplay suddenly gets qualms about shooting a robot in the back in Deathwatch.> Yep, that's annoying all right. Me: <And the only member of the crew he *invented* was a woman who killed for money and didn't show any positive human qualities till near the end of the series.> and Stephen: < If Boucher is God then I can only suggest that his followers hunt down all copies of that statement and burn it in order that his imperfections be not exposed to the profane gaze of the heathen ! As far as Soolin's concerned she's the one who objects to Avon using Dayna and Vila as bait in Stardrive and IMO comes across as being quite sympathetic in Headhunter, sympathises with Neebrox in Assassin and objects to Keillers cold blooded murder in Gold.> <grin> I don't recall that she objected *very* strenuously in Stardrive (will also admit, I only watch it when I absolutely have to). Assassin and Gold are towards the end of the series (and I tend to lump Headhunter in with them too; there seems to me to be a natural break between the episodes up to Animals and those afterwards - mostly, I will concede, because Solin starts showing real character [she'd have been great in S5, IMO] and Avon begins to thaw out after the trauma-driven deep freeze of the post-Terminal period). And incidentally, Soolin can't talk in Gold IMO - she's the chief gunhand in a plan that involves - as far as they know - pure murder for gain (Gold is a fast, exciting, and very pretty episode, which tends to obscure that little fact). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [B7L] Re: Orbit
by Sally Manton 03 Aug '01

03 Aug '01

James wrote: <From a pragmatic point of view, Avon cannot ignore what the others in the group think of him - otherwise they wouldn't follow him. This doesn't mean that he has to be nice to them - the "hard man" approach can be just as effective.> Mine Own Opinion is that he *does* care in a skewed sort of way; he works fairly steadily to make the others believe, not that he would stab them in the back, but that he *will* put himself first and foremost. As I've mentioned before, Avon's impulse to discourage trust is very strong, moreso even *than* his self-interest, to the point where he will stir up distrust even when it's a bad idea ("I have to get rid of Blake first. You're next on my list." Cygnus Alpha). He wants to keep the others wary of him, wary of relying on him, wary of trusting him. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: People More Important (was Shadows of Blake)
by Sally Manton 03 Aug '01

03 Aug '01

Ann wrote: <Yes, Blake has said that people are more important than things. But Avon says something like the following several times (this quote from Volcano), and nobody seems to contradict him: AVON: All right, but you haven't much time. If you are not back here in an hour I shall have to consider the safety of the Liberator as the first priority. Do you understand me?> Yes (and he orders Tarrant to 'abandon Dayna' - *his* word - in Animals). Blake actually shows that he feels the same way by refusing to surrender the Liberator in Horizon. <Is it "the safety of the Liberator is first because I want it and I don't care about the rest of you?" Or is it "the safety of the Liberator is first because only it can protect the rest of us?" And why doesn't anybody argue???> The latter, mostly (against the former, see Horizon), with the addition - for Blake, at least - that giving up or losing the Liberator to the Federation would be a disaster for the entire human race ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Sayings from the series
by Sally Manton 03 Aug '01

03 Aug '01

Tony wrote: <Are there other sayings people use in real life, and if so, what are they and why do you use them ?> Use, maybe not, would love to have the nerve to, oh yes ... "Do you want the applause now, or will it wait?" (Avon, Sarcophagus) VILA: Avon, this is stupid! AVON: When did that every stop us? (Star One) VILA: I've got this shocking pain right behind the eyes. AVON: Have you considered amputation? (Redemption) AVON: Staying with you requires a degree of stupidity of which I no longer feel capable. BLAKE: Now you're just being modest. (Breakdown) "Oh, I'm sorry I missed that. It's the kind of natural stupidity no amount of training could ever hope to match." (Shadow) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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RE: Re: [B7L] Re: Orbit
by Sally Manton 03 Aug '01

03 Aug '01

Mistral wrote: <Now, I wonder . . . somebody has a theory about Vila being an agent of some greater power, can't quite remember the details. Could Orac be an agent of an opposing power, on a mission to kill Vila and make it look like an accident?> Nonono, the truth is that, after one rather-more-fraught-than-normal day on the flight deck, Avon was muttering "who will rid me of this turbulent pr - I mean, lazy-good-for-nothing theif?" and Orac's just been trying ever since to oblige. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [B7L] Gshault
by Marian de Haan 03 Aug '01

03 Aug '01

Tony Nolan wrote: > Im wondering if other people see themsleves a a mixed bag of B7 characters qualities.< I'm as lazy as Vila :-) Marian

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