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Re: [B7L] Blake's motivations (was Avon & Byron)
by Sally Manton 13 Jul '01

13 Jul '01

Marian wrote: <By his own admission, Blake goes to free the prisoners because he needs a crew. I doubt whether he sees them as friends or feels much loyalty to them.> <grin> Been here, done this. My opinion is still that [a] even at this stage of memory recovery he could do a hell of a lot better than all of them bar Gan and maybe Vila (as Natasa pointed out some time ago, he doesn't take long to remember the presumed-still-alive rebels on Saurian Major); [b] he has no guarantee that any of them *will* stay and is not going to make them if they don't want to (remember in Time Squad, he makes it clear no one is constrained to stay; [c] he is taking a large risk going down by himself to rescue them, knowing as he does that Avon and Jenna *might* swan off and leave him (he has a fair amount of faith that they won't when push comes to shove, but not blind faith, hence that little lie about what happened on the surface. He could lose everything by doing this, and he knows it. He needs a crew, yes, but look, we're talking about needing a whole *two more* people than he's already got to be able to run the ship perfectly well, in a galaxy riddled with dissidents. He doesn't need *these* people. I think he feels responsible for them, since his mutiny failed and got several of them killed. Responsibility is after all one of Fearless Leader's defining traits ... he can manage it for the whole galaxy :-) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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What Federation soldiers are taught (or; I've done it agai n)
by Alison Page 13 Jul '01

13 Jul '01

Das ist gut! C'est fantastique! Alison ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************

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Re: [B7L] Blake's motivations (was Avon & Byron)
by Marian de Haan 12 Jul '01

12 Jul '01

Natasa wrote re Cygnus Alpha: >I think the whole episode tells us a lot about Blake. Being a good judge of characters, he's seen through the other two and, with or without the treasure room, he knows it's quite likely they might desert him. That a hero risks his life and freedom is OK, it's something we conventionally expect heroes to do. But here Blake risks losing the Liberator - the ship he deems so precious for his Cause, the only thing in the galaxy that can challenge the Federation - for what? For a chance to save a handful of losers such as Arco and Salmon and Vila! One can hardly get better proof of Blake's loyalty to friends. No wonder he's pissed off like hell when it turns out they don't want to be saved.< By his own admission, Blake goes to free the prisoners because he needs a crew. I doubt whether he sees them as friends or feels much loyalty to them. Marian

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Re: Servalan and Avon
by Helen Krummenacker 12 Jul '01

12 Jul '01

> And the whole thing with Servalan (though I'm always amused by the fact that > they appear to have been *totally* blind to each other's sex appeal right up > until the minute Blake and Travis aren't there to distract their attention). > Perhaps that's one of the reasons I don't think there was much passion on his side. I've always had the opinion that when he suddenly realised she actually was attracted to him, he'd turn the charm on and off to get what he needed (such as buying time) and then get the hell away. To me the shove he gave her after the first kiss was his way of stating he'd only kissed her to make his rejection of her charms more total and absolute. Which isn't to say he didn't respect and admire her-- rather in the way a FBI profiler might become intrigued by the sociopath he's tracking. Servalan, OTOH, never noticed Avon while Blake was around because as far as she was concerned, Blake was their Undisputed Leader. And Servalan would NEVER pay attention to any but the top banana. She was attracted to both Avon and Tarrant-- but then, Avon was never the *official* leader and thus didn't completely overshadow Tarrant in her eyes. JMO, and I'd love to hear others, Helen > >

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Re: [B7L] Avon & Byron
by Natasa Tucev 12 Jul '01

12 Jul '01

Sally: ><Perhaps Avon just articulated what they both had in mind? (And then she >articulated refusal to desert Blake - which they also both had in mind).> > >Yup. Had he *really really* wanted to stop her hitting that teleport button >to bring Blake back, he could've. I find the whole thing a bit like Avon and >Cally in Horizon ... he needs someone else to *agree* to the decision to >desert before he can actually *do* it. I'd rather say, he needs someone to *disagree* because it gives him an excuse. Then Avon can say to himself, "I wanted to desert, it's just that Jenna/Cally/Feds/Alien fleet/fill in the blank... prevented me." It's much easier than any attempt at introspection which would reveal something *within* that prevents him. Another problem - given that the three of them have spent those (also problematic) four months aboard the Liberator before reaching Cygnus Alpha, how come no one has spotted the treasure room sooner? Or perhaps Blake discovered it before Jenna, but wouldn't tell the other two, knowing that it would seriously decrease his chances of being teleported back from Cygnus Alpha? (And put a label saying, "Beware of rats", or "Sticky alien underwear inside".) I think the whole episode tells us a lot about Blake. Being a good judge of characters, he's seen through the other two and, with or without the treasure room, he knows it's quite likely they might desert him. That a hero risks his life and freedom is OK, it's something we conventionally expect heroes to do. But here Blake risks losing the Liberator - the ship he deems so precious for his Cause, the only thing in the galaxy that can challenge the Federation - for what? For a chance to save a handful of losers such as Arco and Salmon and Vila! One can hardly get better proof of Blake's loyalty to friends. No wonder he's pissed off like hell when it turns out they don't want to be saved. ><I guess with Servalan sex appeal is closely related to the appeal of power, >so she started noticing Avon when he became the "owner" of that big ship, >and "seduce Avon" became synonymous with "get the Liberator".> > >Yeeesss, she was probably bright enough to realise early that Blake was >about as seduce-able as a rock - it's a wonderful non-relationship they >have, they show absolutely *no* interest, good or bad, in each other as >human beings. Hmm, I think there is a little moment in "Orac" (I might have dreamt it up, I last saw that ep in 1980-something), when Blake says, "I think you'll kill me now, Travis, unless Supreme Commander has other plans." And then he looks at her. Of course, he's just buying time, he's looking at Avon behind her shoulder, but I think his tone and his eyes are slightly... flirting. N.

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FW: [B7L] Avon & Byron
by Sally Manton 12 Jul '01

12 Jul '01

Natasa wrote: <Still, I'd say he displays some Byronic traits even earlier. He has a weekness for beautiful women (Cally in Web),> True, though one must admit he's not inclined to let said weakness run away with him (well, not yet :-)). Interesting that he shows absolutely *no* interest in the more conventionally-pretty Jenna (that dour "not wasting your time on frivolities is gorgeous, as is his offputting stiffness in the cell in Redemption when she's sitting soooo close). <he's "capable of deep and strong affection" (to quote Macaulay) although obviously not capable of communicating it (the famous "you don't have to become irrational to prove that you care" speech in Duel),> Not capable of *verbalising* it, true ("I could never say it" to Anna), but for anyone who's listening the right way, actions don't just speak louder than words with our Avon, they yell at the top of their figurative voices (which is of course one of the joyous things about watching and listening him). Because of course, if Avon *was* the cold, callous human computer, *without* the capacity for deep emotion we can see in his relationships with at least Anna and Blake, he'd be so much less interesting. (The strong, intense but secretive Byronic hero is veeerrry romantic, after all, and I do recall reading that PD's fan mail went up - quite a lot - after RoD). <women find him beautiful and are attracted to him (Meegat in Deliverance and Dayna at the very beginning of S3).> And the whole thing with Servalan (though I'm always amused by the fact that they appear to have been *totally* blind to each other's sex appeal right up until the minute Blake and Travis aren't there to distract their attention). <Besides, the development re Anna Grant (hero feeling responsible for the death of his darling summons her ghost from the dead - a motif from "Manfred", IIRC) starts as early as Countdown.> True again, the sad love affair is there, it just turns all dark and gothically twisted and *really* tragic in Rumours. <It goes without saying, I think, that we can rightfully claim to have found in a work of art more than the artist(s) consciously intended to put there.> Absolutely, and even more so when there's several artists not necessarily working in the same direction, since it creates more tension that give me more room to play. It would IMO be a very poor and bald work that *didn't* let the reader/viewer do some of the work and discover their own ideas and resonances within it, and one of the joys of the mailing lists is finding and trying out other people's finds as well as my own. <For instance, Terry Nation acknowledged the influence of Dirty Dozen, but I'm sure the legends of Robin Hood also played a part in creating B7, and it's not difficult to prove.> I'd be absolutely astonished if they hadn't, especially with the character of Blake himself, the Alpha outlaw (aka nobleman) fighting for the rights of the 'rabble' (stealing power from the rich to give to the poor? :-)). And the costumers definitely were pushing in that direction (the greens and browns, and that nice little pseudo-medieval chainmail decoration in S1). I'm inclined to think any story about an 'outlaw band' is liable to pick up echoes of the Robin Hood story, because of the latter's influence on culture for hundreds of years - it'd be bloody hard work keeping it *out*. What we have is Robin and his Dirty Half-Dozen - who, the BBC being what it is, are not all *that* dirty (there aren't a *lot* of crime sprees in the series, even after Blake takes his Cause and disappears, just enough to remind us that these are supposed to be crooks as well as rebels). Then there's Vila, and his alter-ego as the Court Jester (both on the Liberator and on Goth) - the jokes, the magic tricks, and *his* S1 costume all patches and bright colours ... like Avon/Byron and Blake/Robin, there isn't *too* much of it, but it's fun to play with (and probably does have an influence on the 'Wise Fool' aspect of some Vila-ish fanfic). And then mixed in is the influences from Brave New World (not the least of which are the grade system and Vila's favourite drink :-) and Metropolis ... and there's the bald-faced thefts like Duel and Rescue. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: Vila, the Fool
by Helen Krummenacker 12 Jul '01

12 Jul '01

Well, when we were discussing alter-egos of Discworld for Our Heroes, Rinsewind was the favored avatar for Vila. Cartainly, the cowardly hero fits. But what of Verence? He starts of as a Fool, plays down his intelligence, is met with scorn until his abilities become noticed, at which point he is used and given little reward. He falls in love with a pretty girl and learns to start standing up for himself. After that point, of course, what parallels there are don't hold--Verence is more intellectual and less sensual than Vila. (Although, unlike Rinsewind, there's no confusing girls with potatoes!) And Verence gets the girl, and the kingdom, and Vila goes back to the ship. But it's interesting. Oh, yes. Verence is not a 'little man', as Magrat fist thinks-- he scrunches himself in a way that makes him look smaller. Like Vila.

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Re: [B7L] What Federation soldiers are taught (or; I've done it again)
by Sally Manton 12 Jul '01

12 Jul '01

Joanne gave us ... <Just What The Federation Orders (tune: Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick, Ian Dury and The Blockheads)> <grin> Isn't it truly inspiring what flights of eloquence the wish not to do what we're being paid to can inpire? Great and truly memorable stuff; thanks. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] TN: The Poetry Disease
by Sally Manton 12 Jul '01

12 Jul '01

Julia wrote: <2:15pm Afternoon Play: The Poetry Disease By Alan McDonald, with poems by Char March. A council official finds that his prose is being infected with poetry, his reports are coming out in rhyme, and his boss is beginning to notice. With Steven Pacey, Julia Ford, Ellie Beavan and Jennie Stoller. Directed by Claire Grove.> Hey, that sounds like a lot of fun even *without* SP's rather lovely voice ... (just received Chris Blenkarn's 'Parodies Lost'. Love B7 in rhyme.) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Avon & Byron
by Sally Manton 12 Jul '01

12 Jul '01

Natasa wrote of Jenna: <I can't believe it never occured to me before: she's actually flirting with him in this scene! First she appears in that outfit, and then *she* directs him to the treasure room - knowing what his reaction would be.> And this is *after* the charming little exchange: JENNA: You wouldn't be trying to get rid of me would you? AVON: I have to get rid of Blake first. You're next on my list. JENNA: That would have been very disarming, if I didn't know that you meant it. <Why would she do that? Why didn't she keep silent about the room until Blake was out of danger? Unless, of course, she was also quite tempted by the gems and half-considered dumping Blake as well?> I think she was tempted, but couldn't quite bring herself to the sticking point. It's always hard to get a handle on Jenna's character, but given her background and her tendency to hardness, the wealth may have put a rather large dent in her *very new,* untried (and from my reading rather unnatural for her to this point) alleigance to the idealist (she never did answer Avon's "what do you want to be rich or dead," did she?) <Perhaps Avon just articulated what they both had in mind? (And then she articulated refusal to desert Blake - which they also both had in mind).> Yup. Had he *really really* wanted to stop her hitting that teleport button to bring Blake back, he could've. I find the whole thing a bit like Avon and Cally in Horizon ... he needs someone else to *agree* to the decision to desert before he can actually *do* it. The whole mess impacts rather nicely on their entire subsequent history, IMO, and they never do quite forgive each other - Avon never quite forgives Jenna for not agreeing to go before he was in too deep emotionally to do it himself (as he proved to be in the very next episode :-)) and Jenna never quite forgives Avon for the fact that she did genuinely consider the offer. That almost-flirting, and the rather nice light teasing: JENNA: I don't think he likes you, somehow. AVON: I think I may have to reprogram this machine. JENNA: That still won't make you likable. - disappear; from then on they can be brisk and business-like (Bounty) or coldly witty (Shadow), but there's a definite touch of acid in the interaction right the way through to Star One. and on a different Avon-and ... <I guess with Servalan sex appeal is closely related to the appeal of power, so she started noticing Avon when he became the "owner" of that big ship, and "seduce Avon" became synonymous with "get the Liberator".> Yeeesss, she was probably bright enough to realise early that Blake was about as seduce-able as a rock - it's a wonderful non-relationship they have, they show absolutely *no* interest, good or bad, in each other as human beings. Apart from Gan, I don't think there was any member of the Liberater crew past or present whom she had less to do personally with than Blake, was there? (This is, of course, because Travis was created to do all the personal interacting with Blake, preferably with extreme and violent prejudice. But that's not Playing the Game). And Avon? For the first two series, had his attention span fully occupied trying to keep *up* with Blake, anyway ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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