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5511 discussions

Etrix recommendations (Was: [B7L] Kathryn's convention report/slash)
by Tavia 06 Mar '01

06 Mar '01

Dana: >I've been writing fanfic for about a year now, and I would >assign my entire output to "queer resistant readings," even >though not ALL of it is soap opera (gay or otherwise). Those who dislike the soap opera genre, but wish nevertheless to read some Etrixian B7 stories might care to sample 'Purple Haze' in ttba, 'Breaks' which I believe is coming out in one of the forthcoming Dark Angel zines, or 'This Gun for Hire' in the Hermit library. Tavia http://www.viragene.com/ http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7/Library/SrchReq.cgi (don't have the Dark Angel site bookmarked, sorry)

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Re: Dressing [was Re: [B7L] Re: slash]
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 06 Mar '01

06 Mar '01

In a message dated 3/6/01 7:21:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, wilsonfisk2(a)yahoo.com writes: << Maybe true. But what that scene does is superbly illustrate how post coital scenes were handled in the series.<< We saw maybe a total of three post-coital scenes in B7. I don't see how one such example illustrates the 'norm' for all of coitus in the B7 universe. Apparently, Anna and Avon didn't share the same practice. They sprang for some sheets and wine. > We never actually saw two adults in a > state of undress in > B7...even Anna Grant only appeared solo, in her > soft-focus 'Avon's eye view' > memory. >Another way of explicitly stating to adults without confusing children. The same techniques could and would have been applied to other characters is neccesary. It wasn't neccesary, so they weren't.< That's your interpretation. As dozens and dozens of slash fanzines and fans illustrate, it's only one of many. Leah

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Re: [B7L] CWC (corn? what corn?)
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 06 Mar '01

06 Mar '01

In a message dated 3/6/01 8:12:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, mistral(a)centurytel.net writes: << Please, people. Can't we learn to live in hominy? >> This goes against my grain. Leah

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Re: [B7L] CWC (corn? what corn?)
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 06 Mar '01

06 Mar '01

In a message dated 3/6/01 4:28:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, mistral(a)centurytel.net writes: << You people are a-pollen'. Stop this silkiness at once. >> Oh, yeah, sure. Just pop on in here and behave like some kind of kernal, giving orders. Fine, bee that way. I don't want another 'row'. Leah

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Re: [B7L] Slash
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 06 Mar '01

06 Mar '01

In a message dated 3/6/01 3:46:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, mistral(a)centurytel.net writes: << > One Libertarian's free love is > another fundamentalist Christian's fornication. << <g> The creature of indeterminate moral persuasion sitting upon my shoulder has suggested that I point out that this is a false dichotomy. I know quite a few fundamentalist Christians who self-identify with Libertarianism. Suggesting that all fundamentalist Christians want to dictate other people's sexual behaviour is a bit like suggesting that all Federation politicians have the scruples of Alta Morag. >> You obviously don't live in the 'Bible Belt'. Seriously, when I used the phrase "one" above, it was deliberate. If I'd meant "all fundamentalists" or "all libertarians", it would have had quite a different intent. As for Libertarians, it was not meant in the political libertarian sense. Some belong to that American political party for reasons of genuine freedom...which for them, includes the use of recreational herbs. Others belong because they want to escape any more government taxation or influence in the future--which is a part of some ultra-conservative agendas that exclude sexual content in the media of any kind. Leah

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Re: Dressing [was Re: [B7L] Re: slash]
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 06 Mar '01

06 Mar '01

In a message dated 3/5/01 9:11:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, 101637.2064(a)compuserve.com writes: << Leah wrote: >To this day I marvel, however, at how fastideous they were >about restoring their clothing to pristine order afterward. Mere modesty. They knew their skeletons were likely to be found by another door-opener in 35 generations and wanted to look their best. >> Just what I would be thinking of, after a wild session of hot Delta passion. For the record, I have utterly no doubt that Vila and Kerril did the horizontal tango. I was merely using the state of perfect dress as evidence that the producers were reluctant to risk offending any younger viewers or their parents. We never actually saw two adults in a state of undress in B7...even Anna Grant only appeared solo, in her soft-focus 'Avon's eye view' memory. Leah

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Slash
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 06 Mar '01

06 Mar '01

In a message dated 3/5/01 9:09:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, wilsonfisk2(a)yahoo.com writes: << > That is because, dear Shane, everyone's > interpretation of 'sex' in our > society draws the boundary between sex and > pornography in a different place. Prettily put, but it doesn't alter the fact that they are two different but related things, rather than the *same thing*. >> We will have to agree to disagree, here. One Libertarian's free love is another fundamentalist Christian's fornication. One fan's erotic fanfic is another fan's porn. Recognize that not everyone agrees to where you lay that boundary. The subject is sex of a graphic nature. Some see it as exciting filmic erotica. Others view it as decadent, filthy porn. Even within legal interpretation, that boundary is always shifting. What the average woman wears to a dance club nowadays would have her thrown in prison or stoned, only a couple of centuries back. Leah

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Redemption '01 - The View from the Front Row - Addendum
by Katharine Woods 06 Mar '01

06 Mar '01

Realised, just after I'd clicked send (natch), that I'd forgotten to mention Iain's Performance Lessons panel. I think other people have commented about what took place in it already but I wanted to add that I thought Iain did a great job in this panel, picking 3 scenes (2 B7 and 1 B5 - Bester and Garibaldi on Mars where Bester reveals to Garibaldi what has been done to him) and preparing script pieces for people to get up and have a go. And of course they did, so kudos to all involved for making another great session. I guess there were no photographs taken of the Una-Avon/Calle-Anna death scene. Alas. A truly great theatrical moment goes unrecorded. (Unlike the original performance which, viewing it again after Una and Calle's rendition, one has to realise is total and utter pants). Kat W

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Re: Re [B7L] PWP (porn? what porn?)
by Ellynne G. 06 Mar '01

06 Mar '01

On Sun, 4 Mar 2001 03:23:39 -0500 "Dana Shilling" <dshilling(a)worldnet.att.net> writes: > Ellynne G. said: >I also don't consider myself the world's most persuasive arguer so I'm not expecting a major change in anyone else's opinions based on what I've said. And having gone more than enough out of my way to prove I was right on that point - On Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:04:51 +0000 (GMT) Iain Coleman <ijc(a)bas.ac.uk> writes: > > On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Ellynne G. wrote: > > > In this context, we're talking about viewing people as objects. > As one > > recent article on the subject said, those addicted to pornography > see > > other people as nothing more than objects without feelings or > emotions - > > and it is much easier to commit crimes against objects than > people. > > I find this result frankly incredible. Can you direct me to this > article? Sure, Iain. Just do what I do. Subscribe to several academic, on-line magazine services (ones that index actual, real, flesh and blood [figuratively speaking] periodicals). Type in various key word phrases, doing either a text or subject search, cross reference the material under the subject headings that appear for each article, and (if so inclined) double check both authors and the periodical for overall reliability (I tend to get a bit sloppy on this last, but [credible] peer review is an important part of the evaluation process). If you don't care for the expense, I would suggest getting in contact with your nearest library (my first choice would be a university library with a good collection in areas such as psychology, law, and family sciences, but I realize not everyone can do that). However, although several articles by different, credible sources should turn up on a text key word search, this one I was specifically refering to came up when I was cross referencing a few statements relating to a woman assigned to a government task force dealing with porn related crimes (it seemed interesting that one paper decided her marital status [single, no children] was of more importance [in their opinion] to whether she was qualified for the job than her 14 years of experience as a prosecutor). Tavia said: >On the level of personal experiences, I'm quite prepared to stand up and be counted as a long-term (>decade) porn user -- at least if you count written-word-only stuff, particularly of the amateur variety. >I've noticed little change in my attitudes over the decade I've used porn compared with the previous 4 or 5 years when I was both adult and non-porn-using. If anything, my real-life activities have been more 'conventional', though I'd put that down to rapidly encroaching middle age coupled with rapidly expanding waistline... >I'm not really into child abuse, serial killing, crimes against women.... &c &c Didn't say you were. In fact, one researcher stated that he feels the major social cost in the U.S. comes from the combination of _violence_ with sex. But then, his primary area was in desensitization to violence (he started out researching military techniques for this in training soldiers [speaking of social sciences the Federation has likely invested a great deal in (interesting to note there were _officers_ who had problems with Travis but there didn't seem to be many enlisted - and I don't recall anyone saying his orders during that massacre were disobeyed). OK, that's it. I've said my piece and I'm not saying anymore. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: Re [B7L] PWP (porn? what porn?)
by Ellynne G. 06 Mar '01

06 Mar '01

On Sun, 4 Mar 2001 03:23:39 -0500 "Dana Shilling" <dshilling(a)worldnet.att.net> writes: > Ellynne G. said: > > > > Regular consumers of porn show a marked tendency to be more > callous > > towards women and to minimize rape as a criminal offense. > Is this cause or effect--i.e., haven't these attitudes been formed > before > the individual becomes a consumer of pornography? OK, let's take the whole media thing from the top. Studies keep showing the same thing - media both teaches and reinforces behavior. Studies of porn in particular show that it can be addictive with users finding they need more for stimulus. > > > > It has been shown frequently to have a key role in the break down > of > > inhibitions and restraint in the sexual abuse of juveniles. > Or to substitute for contact with actual juveniles, > in which case relating to a pornographic image is clearly better > than > harming a real child (although children may have been abused to > create the image) See prior statement about _increasing need_. Since child porn is illegal, this is a harder area to study. However, I've read some accounts by one law enforcement official who, in a career of over twenty years, _never_ had a case of child sexual abuse where the perpetrator didn't also have child porn. 100% is a scary stat. Look, let me cut to the chase here. There are three things influencing my views on porn. First, my personal ethics which, while an area open for reasonable discussion, obviously have only a limited playing field in making demands in how others act (like not having people throw it in my face when I don't want to see it - in other words, a little common respect). Second, there are ranges of personal experience that are difficult to bring into any online discussion but that, nevertheless, have had a major impact in my attitudes (there are porn junkies in the neighborhood who will spend hours at the local library looking at the stuff on the internet, and a friend was threatened by one). Statistically and scientifically questionable, but personal experiences often are. Third, however, is that I believe the studies that connect porn with various social problems. I live in the country that accounts for about 75% of the documented serial killers in the world, where stats on crimes against women have gone through the roof. Do you think I'm going to lightly dismiss studies about media's influence on this? > > > > It negatively impacts marriage and family life. Consumers of porn > are > > more likely to have distorted views of human sexuality and to view > > infidelity and multiple partners as acceptable. > What, exactly, is a distorted view of human sexuality? In this context, we're talking about viewing people as objects. As one recent article on the subject said, those addicted to pornography see other people as nothing more than objects without feelings or emotions - and it is much easier to commit crimes against objects than people. > > Twenty years ago, the acting out of certain sexual behaviors by > > preadolescents was unheard of in cases where the child had not > been > > sexually abused. Now, it is proof of a television in the home. > Don't forget the role of increased reporting, which is not the same > as > an increase in the reported phenomenon. Reread what I said. We're not talking about increased incidence. We're talking about changes in the environment in which it occurs. If anything, twenty years ago, child sexual abuse was still a taboo subject. Cases were routinely dismissed because children were considered unreliable witnesses (this changed radically and, yes, there was a spurt in false reports and accusations [doubly unfortunate because, besides attacking the innocent, it made it that much easier to dismiss real cases in the aftermath]. We're not talking about that period). Look, my feelings on this matter are strong and not likely to change. I've stated my reasons, and they're not likely to change, either. I also don't consider myself the world's most persuasive arguer so I'm not expecting a major change in anyone else's opinions based on what I've said. Besides, I can't think of a single Ob. B7 statement at this point. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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