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5511 discussions

Re: Fw: [B7L] Chemistry
by Sally Manton 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

littles(a)lycos.co.uk wrote: <Explain to me what sort of chemistry there could be between two straight actors playing two straight men.> 'Chemistry' has been seen between just about every popular pairing of actors, whether the same sex or not, whether platonic or not, since the turn of the century (that is what 'buddy movies' are *based* on, in my opinion, though others may differ). What the viewer makes of that chemistry is entirely up to them. Millions of film-goers saw romantic chemistry between Doris Day and Rock Hudson' am I to say they were wrong because [a] I don't, and [b] we now know he was gay? As anyone on FC will confirm, I'm actually of the opinion that the entire crew were celibate for the entire 4 years (with the exceptions of Vila in 'City' and Tarrant in 'Sand'). Other people see a romantic tension between Avon and Cally, despite the fact that she's supposed to be an alien (but luckily, not *very* alien :-). To quote the FAQ, written by Sue Clerc years ago: "Blake and Avon give off more sparks than California in brush fire season and the tension between them creates a rich subtext. One of them is an extremely intelligent, arrogant outlaw with a short temper and a ruthless streak. He can really be a bastard sometimes. And Avon is just as bad (and gets better lines). In spite of the pyrotechnics between them, however, there's a bond that leads Avon to risk everything, and everyone, to get to Blake. Twice." The thing is, it's also a very *complicated* chemistry, and the result is people can see anything they want in it (I know one person who thinks they genuinely loathed each other from the moment they set eyes on each other). That's one of the reasons *why* there are so many stories centred on them; so many people can get so many different things from what they see on the TV. Me: <even as I (being hetero) have one for pairings such as Avon and Servalan, where many many others see it - including the actors involved - and I don't.> littles(a)lycos.co.uk <Passionate kiss in Aftermath... passionate kiss in Deathwatch... but both between Avon and Servalan. No heavy snogs for Avon and Blake that I can recall. Unless you know better?> I didn't say that the script - and the film - clearly indicates that they are interested in each other. Of course they were. I said I saw no chemistry; that is, while I know I'm supposed to believe - because of the snogging - that it's a passionate relationship, I saw scenes between them that were as exciting for me as watching Doris and Rock entwined. Avon and Servalan's interest in each other is canonical, but simply doesn't seem to push the same fanfictional buttons, gen or adult, as Avon and Blake's, or Avon's and Cally's for that matter (my data on this is Sarah Thompson's lists - covering adult - and the reading I've done). That's why I said what I did. Chemistry is a very very *personal* thing, it's for each viewer to decide for themselves what is an interesting relationship and what isn't, and what they think that relationship is made up of. And ... to turn the thread slightly ... it's not just romantic/sexual chemistry. Reading the archives, I came across a plaintive little cry of "doesn't anyone else think Avon *didn't* hate Vila?" and a huge range of responses ranging from "I think it's a brotherly thing" to "they enjoy each other's company" to "man and his dog, that covers it" to "oh, not hate, but he thinks Vila's useless". Anyone want to talk about this? What do you think the Mutual Disparagement Society *actually* thought of each other behind all the insults? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Pardon my ignorance, but...
by Sondra Sweigman 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

In following the h/c/S&M discussion, I've encountered the following 3 expressions: "gay-dar", "S&M-dar", "lesbian-dar." I know what gay, lesbian and S&M mean--but what, pray tell, is "dar"? Sondra

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Re: [B7L] What's Silly ? (was Excalibur, Blake's 7 (but no Zulus))
by Sally Manton 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

Leah wrote: <How can *anything* be more silly than a giant, inflatable grasshopper that eats red rock candy?> I do recall a set of elderly SF books my mother owned, where the chief aliens were [a] an intelligent furry 4 foot toad and [b] a fluffy pink cloud that thought it was God (it was voted into the job by other fluffy pink clouds) :-) And we think Moloch was bad ... Actually, for someone who has previously pleaded for no giant spiders in fanfic (the writer not being on a B7 budget, after all) I found myself staring at a capeworm the other day (before removing it from my houseplant) and thinking "now *that* would make a terrific alien thingy". (For those who haven't had the pleasure, it looks like a large, translucent slug, and 8definitely* not of this world. Harmless, except to my plant). _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Freedom City
by Tiger M 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

Several people have asked about Freedom City. It's a forum where people can discuss relationships in the B7 universe, including sex, both het and slash, as well as other topics that have been or might be sources of unwelcome friction here on Lysator. It's a supplement to this list. Discussion and fanfic are welcome on FC, flaming and trolling are not. Not everyone on FC is a slash fan; some people just like the relaxed atmosphere there. Those who are interested joining need to contact me, either at this address or at Tigerm1019(a)aol.com, with a statement that they are over 18 and legally adult in the area where they live. This is so I can cover myself legally should the need arise. :-) BTW, you'll probably get a faster response if you contact me at the AOL address; I just use this one to post from because AOL 6.0 and Lysator's software do not get along. Tiger M, Freedom City list-owner __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Re: Re: [B7L] Thread hijacking (was Re: Sally-speak)
by Fiona Moore 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

----- Original Message ----- From: Fiona Moore <nydersdyner(a)yahoo.co.uk> > > frankly, you don't have a > > right to. If you want to have *private* > > conversations "over in the corner", > > then why are you posting them on a huge mailing > > list? <drily> By the same token, then, one might ask why people post lecherous remarks about Avon... Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gay Subtexts
by Mac4781＠aol.com 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

Dana (quoting Fiona) wrote: > > My point is, if the writers/actors/whoever had intended the characters to > > read as gay/involved, they could have done so. But they didn't. > And don't forget that apart from anything else B7 was sometimes considered > a kids' show which would limit exploration of any kind of sexual > relationship > with anybody. Dana, do you accept that there is a difference between raw canon and what individual viewers think they see/might like to see on the screen? That on a very basic level there is a show that is put together by a creative team (writers, directors, actors, etc) and that team considered the Blake and Avon relationship to be strictly platonic. I have to agree with Fiona that canon is separate from fanon. There are a few canonical adult relationships that were clearly intended to be adult relationships per the intent of the creative team (such as Avon/Anna). Beyond those, postulating sexual relationships between B7 characters (and I enjoy exploring those possibilities) isn't canonical. Carol Mc Carol Mc

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Re: [B7L] Avon's signature
by Ashton7＠aol.com 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/23/01 7:39:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, awilliams(a)daikin.com.au writes: << Also, does anyone know if any of the other actors have provided signatures for their characters? >> I don't think I ever got any autographs of the actors with the character names on them, although I do have a fairly unique (I would think) photo of Phil Collins signed by Michael Keating with the notation "Sisters". LOL (Some of you who have been around for a long time will probably remember that it became a joke to tease MK at conventions about a resemblance to Phil Collins). Annie

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Wendy's complaint (was Sally-speak)
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

> As for attacking Wendy - no, I don't think so, either. It looked more to > me like people reacting to what they perceived as an attack from her. > The topic and her position on it were not the problem; it was the > sarcasm, insults, and slurs. I'm telling you, go back and read the thread from the beginning, and prepare for a shock. It makes for exhiliarating reading. Sarcasm, yeah, but no insults *or* slurs. Often, too, she's only quoting people's own language back at them (there's one where somebody starts a reply to her with "well, duh," and she starts her reply with "well, duh," too-- why's that an insult from Wendy and not from the other person?). I'd also point out that if you read her penultimate Deliverance post (it's the fourth of the month I think), she lets the last two defenders of the "Avon was nice to Meegat" school off the hook. Obviously lacks the killer instinct. The bit where it all seems to fall apart, though, is the "knock knock, there's a wolf at the door" post. Now I haven't got the text of that handy, cause I can't seem to get that far on the archive, but some people on the Lyst seem to have decided to take it as an insult. Me, it reminded me a lot of a riddle I heard a while back. The question was, "Are we wolves or lambs?" and the answer was "both." Or, like Pogo said, "we have met the enemy and he is us." That post was so cryptically put, it could have meant any number of things. Shane "None of us showed conspicuous intelligence on this occasion." --Avon

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Thread hijacking (was Re: Sally-speak)
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

Neil wrote: > > But there's another sort of thread hijacking which neither of you > mentioned, > > which is when somebody comes on the serious thread and makes a point, but > > does it in a silly way, say calling Blake "my sweet baboo" or calling > > Servalan "She who must be obeyed." Which IMO trivialises the the > character, > > the argument and the poster's point, all at the same time. > > Actually I have no problem with this per se, since a valid point is a valid > point regardless of the terms in which it's couched. However, such posts > are likely to be character-oriented, and as such pull a non-character > oriented thread off-track. No matter how sensible the point, when it's prefaced with "Fearless Leader" (originally a sarcastic remark from Avon about Blake) it makes it pretty difficult to take seriously. Everything that follows the epithet then sounds like it is meant to be sarcastic-- and to make matters worse, you can't post in to say "Erm, did you *mean* that to sound as sarcastic as all that?" or "Would you mind not saying Fearless Leader, it's altering the tone of the argument" without insulting the original poster mortally. Shane "Here's hoping they all have nice legs."-- Vila

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Fw: [B7L] Sally-speak
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 23 Feb '01

23 Feb '01

Annie Wrote: > In a message dated 2/21/01 10:18:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, > littles(a)lycos.co.uk writes: > > << Slash, hurt/comfort... whatever. Rewrite the sentence to read "...between > fan hurt-comfort fiction and Eng. Lit." and you still get the idea. Anyway, > we're still talking about what appears to be a transatlantic imposition on a > British series, which has been retconned back into the series itself. >> > > Hmmm. So, you're saying that only us Americans have "forced" the BLakes 7 > characters into those naughty little slash stories and that icky hurt/comfort > stuff? Er, no. Sorry. Not true. Nope, the English are guilty as well. But hang on, wasn't it you who came on the lyst a few days ago and said that British fans tend not to like H/C and the Americans do, cause for the Americans it's "normal"? Why the change of story? > > And, even if it was, so what? I mean, really, "transatlantic imposition on a > British series"? Because we're American fans we're not allowed to enjoy > Blakes 7? Not saying it at all. Just wanting to propose a deal-- you don't have Avon making gushy speeches about his feelings, and I won't have Spock organise a union on the Enterprise and stage a sit-down in the transporter room. Remember what happened to Doctor Who: 26 years with the Beeb, 90 minutes in America. Half-human, indeed. > series? Just be FANS? So long as we're fans of the same series. I don't think so... and I think you're barking up the > wrong tree if you think you're going to have any effect on what other fans > say and do, regardless of their nationality. Not expecting that. Just expressing my opinion, ma'am. Fans, wherever they are from, > tend to like what they want to like and, in the case of fan writers, write > what they want to write. I think everybody all around would be a lot happier > if they would give up the notion of thinking they can somehow "control" the > direction of an entire fandom. Never said I wanted to change your mind. If you want to try to change mine, feel free, but what you said goes double. I think you're confusing me with Diane Gies. Shane "I always thought his death and mine would be linked in some way."

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