Blakes7 May 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

84 participants
897 discussions

Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Cuddly wuddly Sally Manton wrote: >Alison wrote: > ><But here you seem to be saying 'this is definitely the truth about Gan's > >character' - and that seems to me to be a meaningless statement. Where is > >truth held? What does 'truth' mean when we are talking about a work of > >fiction?> > > > >Yes, yes, a hundred thousand times yes!!! No, no, a billion times no!!! > >I do rather like Gan (though he'd be a fair way down on my list of > >favourites). I like most of them. The thing is this isn't the Battle of > >the > >Bulge or a treatise on well, anything, Wrong again, Manton! it's a TV show which we all enjoy > >for > >our own reasons, That's true. and even if those reasons are simply "I like the > >characters > >this way, thank you", That's true. > >that's a perfectly valid POV. To a degree. > > > >It really *is* okay if Steve R thinks Gan is a homicidal maniac Well, he'd be right. Gan is a homicidal maniac. and I think > >he's just the only ordinary man in sight pushed into an extraordinary > >environment Then you'd be wrong, then wouldn't you? - or if someone like Judith Seaman thinks that GP Blake really > >did intend to sell Avon out (an argument I can't even begin to comprehend, > >but so what?), She'd be wrong as well. as long as it's remembered that I *don't* have to agree if I > >don't think it's warranted. Good. Progess at last. A statement must be justified. If I say something that cannot be justified, then you have the right to attack that statement and show where I have gone wrong. If I think you are right then I will ajust that statement. But what we are implicity accepting here is that there is an actual "truth". That B7 isn't just a collection of random scenes and random words that can be justifiably assembled any way you see fit. If that was the case then B7 would be a programme unique in the history of televison. What people are doing in Lysator is saying, "Oh, I don't understand that bit, it must be bad writing. I can do whatever I want with the programme." This quite frankly moronic arrogance has now spread to include individual episodes. "IMO Avon killed Blake because he mistook him for Travis", like hell did he. Listening to people give their own very > >different versions can be lots of fun It can also be extremly boring, especially when they start running about like chickens with their heads cut off if someone says something that contradicts their own personal fanons. "How dare you say that about Avon. I'm leaving the lyst. Blub, blub." > > if that's kept in mind; it was last > >year and before that and can be again. If all IMO's were valid, then life would have no meaning. Sometimes I think I've accidently walked into an episode of The Prisoner. "In some place, at some time, all of you watched a television series called Blake's 7. And had knowledge that was invaluable in protecting you from an enemy. You are here to have that knowledge stifled, or reduced to an IMO. Unlike me, many of you have accepted the situation of your imprisonment and will die here like rotting cabbages. The rest of you have gone over to the side of our keepers. Which is which? How many of each? Who is standing beside you now? I intend to discover who are the prisoners and who are the warders." Or, if you prefer: "This farce, this twenty-first century Bastille that pretends to be a pocket democracy. Look at you. Brainwashed imbeciles. Can you laugh? Can you cry? Can you think? Is this how they tried to break you till they got what they were after? In your heads must still be the remnants of a brain. In your hearts must still be the desire to be a human being again." In the last episode Number 6 met number 1. It was he all along. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Spacefall
by Tavia 15 May '01

15 May '01

Jenny asked: >What do you want? General themes or a line by line analysis. >If you want the latter I'll have to send an email containing the >entire script for Space Fall. I'll can do that if you like, but it'll be >a big email. Is it going to piss everyone else off? Large e-mails don't bother me, but I might well be in the minority. Why don't we go for the themic version for now, and save the blow-by-blow account for points of particular interest or contention? Tavia

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Re: [B7L] Re: Limiters in general
by Sally Manton 15 May '01

15 May '01

Mistral said: <There is at least one piece of evidence in B7 that Gan's limiter may similarly function on intent, or more accurately, on emotion; Blake says in 'Breakdown': "The limiter is supposed to cut in when stress drives him to the point where he might kill."> Which also indicates that the use of the thing is rather (pun not intended but unavoidable) limited. If it works on stress levels - i e people who kill under stress or intense emotion - anyone who kills disapssionately (like Blake, for instance) would have no trouble circumventing it :-) <grin> Travis, on the other hand ... if he had one, might the thing mistake his surge of emotion (albeit triumphal joy) on finally getting to Blake as some form of stress and stop him? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: Space Fall (Was:[B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses)
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Tavia wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > > >And when someone reviews Space Fall I'll show > > >you an instance of that happening. > > > >Why don't you go ahead and review Space Fall, then, for general Lyst > >delectation? > > Okay. What do you want? General themes or a line by line analysis. If you want the latter I'll have to send an email containing the entire script for Space Fall. I'll can do that if you like, but it'll be a big email. Is it going to piss everyone else off? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Steve Kilbane wrote > >Jenny wrote: > > > > > Good. Progess at last. A statement must be justified. > > > >Well, actually, we had *that* particular argument a few months back, and > >it got rather unpleasant. :-) Yes. Ever wondered why? > > > If I say something > > > that cannot be justified, then you have the right to attack that > >statement > > > and show where I have gone wrong. If I think you are right then I will > >ajust > > > that statement. > > > >Therein lies much of the argument here. You've got to be persuaded before > >you change your point of view. That's true. If you disagree about the evidence, you're > >unlikely to be convinced. Not at all. You bring consistent evidence to support a conclusion, then I will consider it very carefully. As for evidence... > > > But what we are implicitly accepting here is that there is an > > > actual "truth". > > > >You might. I don't, You do with Shakespeare. for the reasons stated in an earlier post on > >dramatic productions. Elements of interpretation and interpolation > >become necessary, but they should be recognised as such. They also have to have a bearing on the text. > > > It can also be extremely boring, especially when they start running about > > > like chickens with their heads cut off if someone says something that > > > contradicts their own personal fanons. "How dare you say that about > >Avon. > > > I'm leaving the lyst. Blub, blub." > > > >Don't recall that many people have left because of this kind of thing. > >It seems more to be because of how people said it; comments ceased to > >be about the series, and became about posters. Go back and look at it again. The entire fight was over interpretation. Some people just don't like having their fanons challenged. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Space Fall (Was:[B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses)
by Tavia 15 May '01

15 May '01

Jenny wrote: >And when someone reviews Space Fall I'll show >you an instance of that happening. Why don't you go ahead and review Space Fall, then, for general Lyst delectation? Tavia

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Steve Kilbane wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > > > No, he probably is right. But as I have stated somewhere else, perhaps > >the > > > Limiter was working (though badly) at that point and scrambled signals > > > *were* feeding into his brain. But then, when Gan wakes up with no > >headache, > > > and then starts strangling Cally, this means that the limiter has > > > temporarily stopped working altogether. Whatever it was doing before. > > > >And as I've stated elsewhere, this is not guaranteed. But it can't be ruled out either. You don't know what > >it's doing; I think I've got a good idea of what the authors intended should be going on. you only know that at some point in the past, it started to > >malfunction. From then on, to the point where an expert in the field > >declares > >that it's fixed, all bets are off. An expert who declares Gan a psychopath. > >They're all possible, as are your possibilities of inferring Gan's history, > >but some are more likely than others. That's true. All you *can* say, reliably, is that > >you can't trust what's going on in there, because there's an unknown factor > >that *might* be influencing things in an unpredictable manner. That's absolutely right. But only right in the sense in which it relates to that particular episode. When evidence from all the episodes is put together, it starts point very strongly in the "Gan was a psychopathic killer of women," direction. See also my post to Sally, on Nation's "Of Mice and Men" comparison. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Sentencing
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Tavia wrote: > > >In 'Shadow', Avon twice refers to the mandatory > > >death sentence for possession of Shadow > > > >Thanks, Anna, for all the convincing examples that execution was used under > >civilian law in the Federation. Yes, it was an excellent email. Also in Games Servalan states that "fraud and theft" are capital offences. Though admittedly that is series 4 and the political situation had changed vastly by that point. My position now is that there is no "official" death penalty in the Federation for murder. > >The point about military law being different from civilian law is an > >interesting one. Quite apart from feeling that people who sign up in > >military roles should not necessarily lose their human rights, the > >pragmatic reason for opposing inhumane punishments under military law is > >the opportunity it gives for repression in the hands of potential > >dictators: take power, declare a state of emergency, impose military law > >and execute anyone who opposes you seems to be a fairly standard series of > >events. Smart stuff. > >It's fairly clear that Federation military and civil codes are different > >from Servalan's contempt for politicians of the civil administration. > >However I have wondered (wild speculation ahead) if the Domes on Earth in > >TWB were operating under some sort of a 'state of emergency' situation. No evidence I'm afraid. > >This might allow for the indiscriminate heavy drugging of civilians that we > >observed, without implying that this was necessarily the normal situation. Yes. but Blake doesn't seem to know that they are all drugged. And when he is told he doesn't really think it's important. RAVELLA: Try some. It's natural water. The stuff we get has been recycled a thousand times, and it's dosed with suppressants. BLAKE: Improves the flavour if nothing else. RAVELLA: Doesn't it bother you that you spend your life in a state of drug induced tranquillity? BLAKE: Why should the Administration try to drug us? RAVELLA: To keep control. They've been stepping up the suppressants because the number of dissidents is growing. They see what's happening and they want to stop it. BLAKE: (INCREDULOUS) Stop what? The Federation doesn't have to declare any 'state of emergency.' The people have enslaved themselves. They just don't care. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Limiters in general
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Steve Kilbane wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > > > I'm not making this up you know. This is no self deluding "IMO" > >bullshit.. > > > The pattern's there. Everything fits. > > > >Even assuming that that is the case, It is the case. > >that doesn't mean you're right. Yes it does. > >It means you have a hypothetical model which fits the facts you've > >observed. Yes, Dr Havant. Other models that do not contradict the same evidence are > >equally valid. But there are no others that do this and fit all the "facts." Standard scientific approach, diluted somewhat > >by individual interpretations of what is a "fact", in a dramatic > >presentation. :-/ Who do you think writes these stories? Aliens? No, human beings. Therefore the stories will, to a great extent, reflect human society. This conversation with you reminds me greatly of that scene in TWB with Dr Havant. HAVANT: You are obviously suffering from a severe emotional disturbance, we must try to unravel this fantasy. BLAKE: It is not a fantasy. HAVANT: Of course it isn't. BLAKE: Do you believe me? HAVANT: To you it isn't a fantasy. BLAKE: Get out! Leave me alone. HAVANT: Reality is a dangerous concept. Each one of us interprets it in a slightly different way. Every sense impression is filtered by the brain and altered. Sometimes just a little. Sometimes completely to fit our individual model of what the world is about. If that model should be challenged... BLAKE: I am not insane! HAVANT: No. You must put that thought completely out of your mind. You had a shock. BLAKE: Yes. HAVANT: We must work together to uncover what the shock was. I'm going to prescribe a mild sedative. BLAKE: No drugs. HAVANT: A mild sedative to help you to sleep. BLAKE: No drugs. HAVANT: All right, no drugs. **Now try not to think anymore.** Don't worry. We'll get it sorted out. They'll get it sorted out alright. In the next scene Dr Havant is saying 'let's kill him. He knows too much.' > >Note: anyone offering Occam's razor as a tie-breaker also has to > >offer a mutually agreeable definition of "simplest". Simplicity is always easy to recognise. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Steve Kilbane wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > > > There will only be one correct reading. The reading the author > > > intends. > > > >True, as far as the script goes (ignoring some literary schools of > >thought for now). But B7 isn't just the writer's vision. That's true. The actors > >and director get some say too[*], and can consequently change the > >meaning - intentionally or otherwise - of the original script. That's true. And when someone reviews Space Fall I'll show you an instance of that happening. That > >makes "correct" something that can be difficult to pin down. Not at all. B7 was production line TV not a film. In a lot of films things are changed all the time. Why do you think Live and Let Die is so full of holes? But not in TV. You compare an original script with the version you see on TV and the changes will be minimal. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Blakes7 May 2001