Blakes7 May 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

84 participants
897 discussions

14 May '01

> >The really interesting thing, as someone brought up on list before, is > >Nova-- he's a pretty fresh-faced kid to be getting life himself. > Maybe he's a rebel or political prisoner - they can kill the ones outside, but maybe speaking against the state can be twisted into 'treason'. Although what always puzzled me is when that guy in Way Back puts his hands up and says to remain peaceful as they arnt braking the law and want their rights. As he seems to have been a rebel for a while, knowing Blake 'before' and all, does this mean this has worked in the past?. Did the federation used to let public demos, and only in the recent history started killing enmass? - I say this because of Blake's group being killed. M. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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Re: [B7L] Gan and Killing
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date wrote: > >--- Jenny Kaye wrote: > > > > > > > > >That would have been Terry Nation and Chris > > > Boucher. > > > > > > > >Forgive me. I didn't realise they actually had > > > said as much. > > > > > > Perhaps you should watch the series again? > > > > >How would that help? Do they make Hitchcockesque > >appearances in Deathwatch, explaining that Gan was > >really Jack the Ripper ? Yes. They appear from time to dressed in rubber Gan costumes:-) Incidentally your argument, > >which is a good one Thank you. > >if somewhat over elaborate, The theory is simple. The elaboration is just me covering every angle. would > >be improved hugely if you refrained from suggesting > >that people who disagree with you are guilty of bad > >faith or not paying attention. Why? They are. The whole point about > >debate is you need two sides. New experience for Lysator IMO. > >It would be helpful if you could cite interviews where > >either of the two suggested that Gan was not quite as > >wholesome as he seemed. There aren't any. I'm arguing from text. I am not doubting your > >veracity, I would just like to know. Again there aren't any. And if we all go through the series together you'll find out why. > > > > > >And in all 18 episodes never gives her name, or > > > refers to it again. > > > > > > > > > >Using lack of evidence as evidence in itself is > > > not usually a good idea. > > > > > > It's not lack of evidence, it's negative evidence, > > > there's a difference. > > > We're talking a character-defining moment here. And > > > it's very interesting > > > that we had just seen very similar events happening > > > on Cygnus Alpha (Gan > > > connects with a woman whose name he doesn't know, > > > >How do we know this ? Gan and the others spend a > >considerable period of time on Cygnus Alpha. We know > >that Kara is attracted to Gan and that she has gone to > >the trouble of finding out his name. Agreed. But how do we know that she has gone to this trouble? Because the scriptwriter has put a scene in the script where she calls out his name. Might she not > >have exchanged a few words with him ? She "might" have done anything. They "might" have had a sex session while suspended upside-down from a chandelier. She "might" be a killer penguin in disguise. Or introduced > >herself ? She introduced herself by kissing him. > >It's not as if she's playing hard to get. One chaste kiss doesn't make a torrid sexual affair. > >The fact that she takes a spear for him suggests the > >relationship has gone further than the kiss (I don't > >necessarily mean physically). She shouts a warning cry. It was just unfortunate that the spear carried on and killed her instead. She didn't throw herself in front of it to protect Gan or anything. > > > > >To use the only other example we have of the > > > crew's past love lives...how > > > > >often does Avon speak about Anna other than in > > > the episode we actually > > > see > > > > >her? > > > > > > Countdown, Children of Auron. Haven't been paying > > > attention have you:-)? > > > >Au contraire, Leia has been paying attention. Avon > >speaks about Anna in those episodes when it is > >necessary to the plot. That's what I mean. In Countdown he cannot avoid > >the subject, That's right, it is a major plot point. in CoA the crew are on route to earth and > >in RoD Avon goes after Anna's killer. Why are they going there? They could be going anywhere. It doesn't have to be that reason. It is because the story is foreshadowing RoD. Otherwise the > >subject doesn't ever come up. B7 isn't real life. Something will in the most part only be mentioned if it has a reason to be mentioned. Not even when he is > >sharing a moment of intimacy with Cally in > >Sarcophagus. That's right. Blake doesn't refer to his family after > >Space Fall, That's right. Avon doesn't refer to his brother after > >Space Fall, That's right. Jenna doesn't refer to her mother after > >Space Fall, That's right. Cally doesn't refer to the events on > >Saurian Major after Time Squad, You haven't been paying attention have you. She mentions Saurian Major in CoA. > >Tarrant refers to his brother's death once in Sand, Character point. It would have been unusual if he hadn't. Cally doesn't refer to > >the death of her sister after CoA. That's right. No-one mentions > >Jenna after Powerplay until Blake tells Tarrant about > >her death. There is a good reason for that. If you keep banging on about a character that isn't going to return, people start to miss her and say things like, "I wish Jenna was back in this programme. It's not the same without her." Gan's non reference to 'his woman' after > >Time Squad is the norm, not the exception. That's the double game for you. Want to go through the capsule scene in Time Squad now? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: moloch/limiters
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date wrote: >--- Jenny Kaye wrote: > > > > > If the > > > author wanted to put that > > > over then you may have had something like: > > > > > > KAYNE: This man's got a limiter implant. > > > > > > RENOR: Really? So what's he doing here? > > > > > > KAYNE: Good question. It's one thing to accept that > > > this is an experimental > > > craft on a proving flight, but quite another to > > > believe it's a test bed for > > > limiter implants. These people aren't Federation! > > > It's Blake and his rabble. > > > > > > RENOR: Are you sure? > > > > > > KAYNE: Of course I'm sure. Remember that story about > > > one of the limiter test > > > specimens escaping? > > > > > > RENOR: You're saying this is the one who got away? > > > > > > KAYNE: To right, you big bottomed bastard! > > > > > > RENOR: (CONFUSED) What? > > > > > > KAYNE: Are you a good witch or a bad witch? > > > > > > RENOR: (MORE CONFUSED) Eh? Are you alright > > > Professor? > > > > > > KAYNE: (SWAYING FOR A SECOND) Sorry about that. > > > Dropped out of character for > > > a moment there. > > > > >Or possibly Terry Nation was trying to avoid putting > >in too much exposition. Ever wondered why? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: sentencing
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Tavia wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > > >Military law is different to civilian law. > > > >Indeed. However, I was referring to the fact that, under currently accepted > >definitions, administrations which use the death penalty under military > >jurisdiction would count as retaining the death penalty in their legal > >system. (Check out Amnesty International material if you're interested.) No you weren't. You were trying to suggest that because the military execute prisoners and because Samor makes a reference to "common criminals" it could mean that the Civilian courts execute prisoners as well. Wrong. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan in Breakdown
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date: > >--- Jenny Kaye wrote: > > > > > So if he > > > can't do it himself, > > > perhaps he can get others to do it for him. That's > > > why he lets the Guardians > > > terrorise Jenna in Time Squad. She goes to the > > > capsule and calls Gan's name, > > > but he doesn't answer. The next minute we see Gan's > > > left hand extending up. > > > He's awake. Gan is trying to cheat the limiter. He > > > is standing by and > > > allowing the Guardian to do the job for him. That > > > way he can vicariously get > > > his jollies. > > > >By being beaten up and possibly killed by some very > >nasty aliens. He isn't beaten up. They don't go anywhere near him. Remind me, is Gan supposed to be a > >homicidal maniac or a masochist ? He's a homicidal sadist. > > > In Breakdown the limiter malfunctions and cuts out. > > > But before it > > > malfunctions it gives him pain. Then Jenna comes > > > onto the deck. Oh, dear. > > > Gan always attacks women when they are on their own. > > > That's why whenever he > > > is alone, or alone in the presence of a woman, Gan > > > gets a headache. It is > > > conditioning him to find such an environment > > > uncomfortable. > > > >Why do the Federation want to condition Gan not to > >want to be alone ? Because that's the environment in which he kills. See also my email to Mistral. > > > When Gan is > > > strangling Cally the limiter cuts in again. The > > > device is faulty. It is > > > repaired in Breakdown, but the headaches don't stop > > > after this episode. He > > > has them again in Orac. There will usually be a > > > secondary reason BTW, but > > > although the reasons for that headache changes, the > > > context will always be > > > the same. Gan is alone. Gan is alone with a woman. > > > > >In Orac, Gan is suffering from radiation sickness. > >This is the reason, the primary reason, he takes a > >pill. One of the side effects of radiation sickness is > >you feel very, very ill indeed. That's the double game for you. Are you going to reprint the conversation in Time Squad between Gan and Jenna outside the capsule now? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re:limiters in general
by Steve Rogerson 14 May '01

14 May '01

Mistral said: "Spike did _not_ feed off a live human being in 'Crush'; Drusilla snapped the girl's neck before passing her to Spike, at which point he hesitated before deciding to drink from the dead girl." That is not the way it appears on screen. The whole point is that Dru is trying to get Spike to overcome the limiter chip. If she was already dead, there would be no point. The hesitation seems to be Spike bracing himself before he bites. Maybe we should go to the spin list if we want to continue this and Spike in general. For what it's worth on Gan, my view is that he is a homicidal maniac and it is only the limiter keeping him in check. It is his true self we see emerging when the limiter malfunctions. We also see glimpses of this on the London when he quite coldly threatens to cut off the guard's hand if he doesn't open the door. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption 03, 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent Celebrating 25 years of Blake's 7 and 10 years of Babylon 5 http://www.smof.com/redemption

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Re: [B7L] Re: moloch/limiters
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date wrote: > > > He could be thinking, "Oh F**k, a > > > Limiter. And why is > > > Gan > > > talking about it? Could he be a psychopathic killer? > > > Oh, well... I > > > wonder > > > what's for tea." > > > > >So if he does know what a limiter is, and later > >discovers that Gan possesses one we might expect him to > >show some small concern at the implications. Excellent point. However, Vila is taking his cues from the rest of the crew. They all accept Gan. Gan's been friendly to Vila. The Federation is run by bastards who set up Blake. Anyway, Vila will get on with anyone who is nice to him. Look at Doran. Doran doesn't like women and has just served 15 years in prison. He's nice to Vila, he calls him his "pal". Vila therefore likes Doran. That's Vila. > > > > > >Kayn and Renor are scientists at an > > > experimental > > > > > >research station. Kayn is the top neuro-surgeon > > > in his > > > > > >field. Renor must be good otherwise Kayn > > > wouldn't have > > > > > >him as his assistant. The rules of > > > neuro-surgery apply > > > > > >on earth and on XK-72. It is entirely possible > > > that > > > > > >they would recognise an experimental device. > > > > > > He doesn't call it an "experimental device" though, > > > does he? They both > > > talk > > > as if it is commonplace. > > > > > > > > >Incidentally Renor's reaction is not matter of > > > fact, > > > > > >rather it is one of horror. > > > > > > Horror that such things are used, not horror at > > > discovering that such > > > a > > > thing existed. > > > >Which means that their use is not commonplace, rather > >horrific. No. It means that Renor is no supporter of the Federation's use of limiters. > > > >Gan appears to be a rather gentle person, when > > > > > >not in a combat situation. > > > > > > That's right. But look at what he's like *in* > > > combat. Grinning, usually. > > > >So, he likes a scrap. More then just a scrap. He likes killing helpless women too. So does Avon, at least in Shadow > >and Mission to Destiny. So does Tarrant in Harvest and > >Rumours of Death. They're men. They like a scrap :-). But where do you see Avon and Tarrant grinning as they slowly strangle a woman? Avon admits he rather enjoyed fighting with Sara, but that was a fight not a murder. Neither Avon or Tarrant is an > >axe-murderer, nor IMO, is Gan. I agree. Gan is not an axe-murderer. He uses his hands to strangle women. > > What Gan says in this scene is very interesting. > > > Reprint the transcript and > > > I'll go through it with you :-) > > > >If I get the chance I will. Hurry up then :-). > > > >Later on in Time > > > > > >Squad when he tries to shoot the alien he is > > > unable to > > > > > >do so. > > > > > > The limiter stops him. For an explanation see my > > > correspondence with > > > Fiona > > > Moore, April 6th onwards. > > > >Not the archives as well ! But the Limiters actions on > >this occasion are consistent with Gan's account of > >them. Double game again. If you reprint both those scenes I'll go through them with you. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date wrote: > >--- Jenny Kaye wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Absolutely. The author is playing a double game. > > > >Which means that the text allows for multiple readings > >- not one correct reading and then the readings of > >other people who haven't been paying attention. There will only be one correct reading. The reading the author intends. He is only giving you alternatives because he is foreshadowing something to come, and also to make a programme which can be watched either as a one-off or in a series. > > > "it's not my field" > > > is > > > > > >intellectual speak for "Whilst I have not > > > studied the > > > > > >subject formally, I'm probably still right". > > > (in > > > > > >Avon's case we can discount the probably). > > > > > > Ah. Disagree. Avon sometimes gets it wrong. > > > >Sorry, I was alluding to Avon's lack of humility, not > >his accuracy. But there is nothing in Breakdown to > >suggest that he is wrong in this occasion. No, he probably is right. But as I have stated somewhere else, perhaps the Limiter was working (though badly) at that point and scrambled signals *were* feeding into his brain. But then, when Gan wakes up with no headache, and then starts strangling Cally, this means that the limiter has temporarily stopped working altogether. Whatever it was doing before. > > > > > > > KAYN: A dangerous psychopath? Certainly. Or > > > would > > > > > > > you prefer he'd been > > > > > > > executed? > > > > > > > > > > > >Kayn also describes the crew as murderers, > > > maniacs and > > > > > >mindless destroyers. This is really rather > > > inaccurate, > > > > > >even in Season 4. > > > > > > Yes, but when it comes to a surgical procedure he > > > has to be more > > > precise. > > > If > > > he isn't Renor, who would know these things and with > > > whom he is > > > arguing, > > > would put him right. > > > > >He isn't arguing with Renor about surgical procedure. > >He's arguing with him about politics. You're not paying attention. They are arguing about politics and he is making reference to a surgical procedure to back up his point. The dynamic > >between Renor and Kayn is quite a complex one. Not really. I think it's fairly straightforward. Renor > >is obviously upset by Kayn's callousness and is torn > >between his natural deference to his senior and his > >objections to Kayn's actions. I don't think that's the case at all. Renor is Kayn's assistant. When they meet in the Liberator's medical centre they are quite evidently relaxed with each other. "This place is full of pretty girls." says Doctor Renor. At another point Renor say to Kayn, "Order? You've had a change of heart, haven't you? I sure poor old Farren would be delighted with your new concern for the rules". Kayn replies "Farren is a bureaucratic fool." They are open with each other, which indicates that they have worked together for some time. That's why it develops into an argument. Renor says, "I'll warn Blake," but Kayn knows him too well, "And lose the chance of working with the greatest surgeon you'll ever see? You're too ambitious for that." It would be wrong (from > >the writers point of view) to have Renor take Kayn > >literally and suggest that he has made an incorrect > >diagnosis. Crap. I expect better from you Stephen :-). Also Kayn is a neuro-surgeon, not a > >clinical psychologist and is therefore probably prone > >to using terms from the other disciplines in a slap > >dash manner. Poor supposition. Kayn isn't a real person, he's a character in a episode of Blake's 7. The writer isn't going to come up with some complex bollocks for a one off character that only the writer is going to know, he going to keep the character motivation straightforward. A pro keeps it simple. simple I can imagine him describing someone as a > >schizophrenic, in the popular sense (split > >personality), rather than the clinical sense in a > >common room discussion merely to annoy the > >psychologists present. No. Because then they would laugh at him. Kayn is arrogant and proud. He wouldn't make a mistake like that. Especially in front of Renor. Are we going to go through this scene from Time Squad now? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan in Breakdown
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Tavia wrote: > >Stephen wrote: > > >One of the side effects of radiation sickness is > > >you feel very, very ill indeed. > > > >Headache, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, bleeding from mucous membranes, and > >death in 2 or 3 days. The limiter's probably the least of his problems. Vomiting and diarrhoea, bleeding from mucous membranes and death are the signs of advanced radiation sickness. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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John Brown (was McVeigh)
by Ellynne G. 14 May '01

14 May '01

>Julia Jones wrote >n message <20010512.123126.-7813.0.rilliara(a)juno.com>, Ellynne G. <rilliara(a)juno.com> writes >>JMO, but can I compare this to John Brown and Lincoln? I think it would >>be useful since slavery is pretty uniformly condemned but that doesn't >>mean everyone who was against it was an angel in disguise. >It's a good example because it's looking at things most of us can >consider without personal interest, but you've assumed a greater >knowledge of American history than is likely to be found in the non- >American portion of the list. Could you give a bit more background >detail on John Brown, please? I didn't know anything about him. Oops. John Brown was from a family of 19th century abolitionists. He was something of an extremist in a time when most abolitionists still opposed violence. His mother, I should mention, died insane, a not uncommon occurance in her family. Five of his sons (he had 20 children [it was the 19th century, after all]) went to Kansas during the 'Bleeding Kansas' era. Kansas was supposed to vote whether it would be a slave state or free. Both proslavery forces (largely from nearby Missouri) and abolitionist ones were encouraging immigration to the territory. Armed conflict eventually broke out. In response to a raid by proslavery forces, Brown led an attack on a neighboring, proslavery town. Five, unarmed men who may have had no connection with the other raid were dragged from their homes, hacked to death, and shot. After this, Brown went into hiding, although he continued to attack proslavery forces. Some stories have presented him as freeing slaves during this period. However, these stories may be complete fictions from a later period (I was wishy washy about including it in the earlier post, but I thought it played so well to the issue, I did. However, doing a little extra checking before this post, I found out Brown led a raid into Missouri some years later and escorted a group of slaves to Canada, so the other stories may be just folklore). Brown is most famous for his raid on Harper's Ferry in the South. He planned to raid a military arsenal there and seize 100,000 guns. He then planned to escape into the wilderness where he would, he thought, be joined by huge masses of escaped slaves once they heard what he had done. Frederick Douglas, a famous escaped slave and friend of Brown, told him the plan wouldn't work and that he would not be able to escape Harper's Ferry alive. Brown launched the raid. Interestingly enough, one of his prisoners was a great-great nephew of George Washington. There were also some slaves among the group, according to one account I read. The impression I got was that they were, understandably, scared stiff of Brown. It's also worth mentioning that the first person killed in the raid was shot in the back while trying to warn a stopping train about Brown and his men. Ironically, this was a free black man. For the rest, Douglas was right. The raid failed. Brown seems to have made little effort to escape, although he held off the defenders for about a day and a half. Some historians think he was already planning some kind of martyrdom. Other suggest he was giving into 'magical thinking' and expected some kind of rescue or mass slave rebellion on the spot. Perhaps, having pulled off so many daring attacks before, he simply couldn't believe this one would fail. He was taken alive, tried, and hanged. This event, more than all the rest, made him a martyr to Northerners and a symbol of abolitionist extremists to the South, where some historians say he might otherwise have been forgotten. The effect it had on public opinion is considered one of the major events in leading to the Civil War. Oh, and for anyone who's ever wondered about the 'small world' B7 characters seem to live in - The legendary Pinkerton, of Pinkerton's detectives, provided $600 to Brown when he was helping those slaves escape to Canada. Robert E. Lee, later to lead the Southern army, led the marines who captured Brown. Despite only a limited number of people being allowed to be present at Brown's hanging, they included a Professor who would later be nicknamed Stonewall Jackson during the war and gain fame at the Battle of Bull Run. Also present was an actor, John Wilkes Booth, Lincoln's assassin. As for the phrase, 'nits make lice.' I was told Brown had said this by one of my professors at college. My notes are unclear on the context except that he said it before killing someone unarmed and underage. It may have referred to a 20 year old he killed in Kansas or to a different incident. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Blakes7 May 2001