Blakes7 May 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

84 participants
897 discussions

Re: [B7L] Sentencing
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

M wrote: > >Although what always puzzled me is when that guy in Way Back puts his hands > >up and says to remain peaceful as they aren't braking the law and want their > >rights. As he seems to have been a rebel for a while, knowing Blake > >'before' and all, does this mean this has worked in the past?. For peaceful groups, quite probably. Did the > >federation used to let public demos, and only in the recent history started > >killing enmass? - I say this because of Blake's group being killed. I think it indicates that Blake's group were not peaceful resisters, but a terrorist group. That's why Blake knows how to break a man's neck. That's how you silently deal with a guard. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

M wrote: > >I thought the reason Kayn simply describes Gan as a psychopath and the > >others in such a way is leading to the revelation that he has called the > >Federation and his devotion to them. It's certainly setting the ground work-- though why he'd single out one person as a psychopath and not the others is interesting. But Nation and Boucher are also playing the double game again. > >As for Gan, although I see him as a level headed man esp. in Way back Er... You don't see Gan in TWB. and > >although not a genius, a normal guy, that limiter does make me wonder. Good. > >Here's an idea, maybe he didn't just kill the guard, maybe he went on a > >rampage and killed loads of guards. "Maybe" he ate those guards as well. "Maybe" he covered himself in their blood and ran through the streets yelling, "I smell of cheese. Whoops! Where's my trousers!" "Maybe" Gan just said he killed loads of guards and everybody believed him. "Maybe" Gan painted his nuts red and hid in a cherry tree. "Maybe" Gan *was* those guards, and killed himself several times over just to confuse everybody. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Alison Page wrote: > >Jenny said - > > > > >>B7 has taken on a personal role in your lives, for twenty years or so > >Gan > >has been a character that you liked, that you felt comfortable with. Now > >some bitch is trying to tell you that Gan is a killer and what is worse, a > >killer of women. This is an attack on a friend. > > > >No it isn't, it's a comment on a fictional character. I personally find Gan > >rather dull, Well he sure ain't dull now! and over the 'past twenty years or so' I have been interested > >to come across your theory from time to time, or variations on it. Well done. > >Supposing you had said 'here is a completely different take on a familiar > >character - and guess what folks, it stands up just as well to scrutiny as > >your complacent ideas, and I can quote the episodes to prove it. It is just > >as valid It's more valid. It's the truth. Not something you often seem to find on Lysator. > >an interpretation as any of you lot who think Gan is nice and safe > >and cuddly, and that's how I view Blakes 7, so get used to it.' That would > >be very interesting, and I for one would have enjoyed that. Good. > > >>I'm not making this up you know. This is no self deluding "IMO" > >bullshit.. > >The pattern's there. Everything fits. > > > >But here you seem to be saying 'this is definitely the truth about Gan's > >character' It is. > >- and that seems to me to be a meaningless statement. It isn't. Where is > >truth held? In the text. What does 'truth' mean when we are talking about a work of > >fiction? In the text. > >These seem to be such glaring problems with your stance They aren't. But there are some glaring problems in the stance you're taking. > > that I can't help but feel you are creating a self-parody. Is it just a joke? No. This is a joke: Q. What do you get if you cross a kangeroo with a sheep? A. A woolly jumper! > > > >Thus I conclude (and speaking only of myself): Actually you are trying to speak for me! > >'I am making this up you know. But I'm not. > >This is self deluding IMO bullshit. But it isn't. > >Nothing about B7 is real. Only if you are an IMO fascist. > >This is just a game I play. Yes, but a game with a message. Nice talking to you. Write again soon. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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RE: [B7L] Re: sentencing
by Anna Simpson 15 May '01

15 May '01

At 13:30 14/05/01 +0000, you wrote: >Tavia wrote: Oops. I accidentally sent this just to Jenny instead of to the Lyst. Trying again... >This from a society that appears to have no official >> > >death penalty (I may be wrong). > >The only reference we have to a death penalty in series 1 is in Breakdown, >where Kayn, when talking about Gan's limiter, says, "A dangerous psychopath, >certainly. Or would you prefer he'd been excecuted?" This certainly tells >us that in Kayn's mind a limiter implant is an alternative to a death >sentence, but it doesn't really tell us if the death penalty is officially >active in the Federation. Unofficially of course, it's rife. Federation criminal justice is an interesting topic, with, alas, as usual quite limited info from the series. As far as the death penalty goes, there do seem to be several references. Also in 'Breakdown', while discussing suitable planets to take Gan to, Avon dismisses going to Cassiona, a Federation world, because: "There's a price on our heads. We are all under sentence of death." In 'Spacefall', Raiker mentions 'the Commander's right to order execution' when punishing prisoners on board the London. 'Summary execution' is referred to again later by Blake as an alternative to 'volunteering' to board Liberator. In 'Shadow', Avon twice refers to the mandatory death sentence for possession of Shadow, which was presumably introduced some time before series one (since he offers it as a good reason for Jenna not to have accepted a cargo of Shadow pre-series). In 'Horizon', Orac finds out about the death of Ro's father (presumably - it's never made explicit, but this is the information Cally gives Ro). According to Orac: "I was instructed to obtain anything relating to the planet. The data was obtained by cross-referencing prisoner and execution lists. It is standard procedure". 'Summary execution' gets another outing as the penalty for boarding a Federation ship without Authority ('Aftermath'/'Powerplay') - this is a kind of civilian/miltary crossover situation, however. Vaguer references to death as a punishment include Servalan's reference to 'The punishment is total', referring to people talking about Blake's actvities. Not a specific reference, but quite unfriendly-sounding. Servalna's reference to Krantor being placed on 'the Council's death list', but how legal a list this is is unspecified. Of course, the Federation also goes in for applying the death penalty on a planetary scale. The Solium bomb seems to be an officially apporved and installed bit of equipment designed to deal with rebellions en masse. >Jenny love Anna

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Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Sally Manton 15 May '01

15 May '01

Alison wrote: <But here you seem to be saying 'this is definitely the truth about Gan's character' - and that seems to me to be a meaningless statement. Where is truth held? What does 'truth' mean when we are talking about a work of fiction?> Yes, yes, a hundred thousand times yes!!! I do rather like Gan (though he'd be a fair way down on my list of favourites). I like most of them. The thing is this isn't the Battle of the Bulge or a treatise on well, anything, it's a TV show which we all enjoy for our own reasons, and even if those reasons are simply "I like the characters this way, thank you", that's a perfectly valid POV. It really *is* okay if Steve R thinks Gan is a homicidal maniac and I think he's just the only ordinary man in sight pushed into an extraordinary environment - or if someone like Judith Seaman thinks that GP Blake really did intend to sell Avon out (an argument I can't even begin to comprehend, but so what?), as long as it's remembered that I *don't* have to agree if I don't think it's warranted. Listening to people give their own very different versions can be lots of fun if that's kept in mind; it was last year and before that and can be again. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re:limiters in general
by Helen Krummenacker 14 May '01

14 May '01

> Spike is able to spar with Buffy, > > >because he has no intent to harm her, and therefore the chip doesn't > > >kick in. > > I'm not on Sky, so I could be wrong about this, but do you think it could > have something to do with the context of the fight? > Spike actually *tells* Buffy he can throw punches, etc at her while they spar because he doesn't have the intention to do harm. > Also, are we ever > actually told by the people who put the chip in exactly how it works. > Nope. > Or is > Spike (and so the audience) only going on trial and error? > Trial and error. Spike didn't know he wouldn't get the migraine attacking a demon until he did, didn't know he could spar effectively until they tried, and even used the 'chip test' to find out if Tara was demonic or not. He gave her a bloody nose and got a migraine, which meant she was free of demon taint. > >

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Re: Blakes7 digest, Vol 1 #422 - 14 msgs
by Helen Krummenacker 14 May '01

14 May '01

Okay, the problem with me being quoted on something another person said: I realize the problem is at my end. The new Netscape software I have doesn't give a text representation that I am quoting someone else; this is what's leading to the confusion. Just to clear the matter, I wasn't the one who originally brought up the children having their memories modified to frame Blake. OTOH, this was correctly attributed to me: Helen wrote about the Federation administration: >They fear political crimes so much they >would rather covertly slaughter large groups than try to brainwash >them.This from a society that appears to have no official >death penalty (I may be wrong). Travis was sentenced to death-- I did think of that, but military law tends to be harsher than civilian, and I decided not to go into that. Since Tavia says the wording of the sentence suggested that civilians might be executed for crimes as well, I shall concede on the 'no official death penalty' point-- I was expressing my lack of memory. Interesting the examples Tavia brought up were Blake and Travis-- both of them brought to trial for political reasons, but under the excuse of true crimes.

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Re: [B7L] Re: sentencing
by Tavia 14 May '01

14 May '01

Jenny wrote: >Military law is different to civilian law. Indeed. However, I was referring to the fact that, under currently accepted definitions, administrations which use the death penalty under military jurisdiction would count as retaining the death penalty in their legal system. (Check out Amnesty International material if you're interested.) Tavia

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by M 14 May '01

14 May '01

I thought the reason Kayn simply describes Gan as a psychopath and the others in such a way is leading to the revelation that he has called the Federation and his devotion to them. So kind of showing his bigotry before you find he is for the state. As for Gan, although I see him as a level headed man esp. in Way back and although not a genius, a normal guy, that limiter does make me wonder. Here's an idea, maybe he didn't just kill the guard, maybe he went on a rampage and killed loads of guards. His anger and rage were such they needed some of that drug from Season 4 for him, but as it hadn't been created, they gave him the limiter. To slow the adrenaline. M. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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Re: [B7L] iains episode reviews: TWB
by M 14 May '01

14 May '01

In Way Back when Varon goes to the records clerk, I always saw it this way. The way they have to bribe him to get the info. I kind of saw this as something regularly done. Maybe just for something as simple as getting the equivalent of a passport back abit a quicker. So its probably common and kind of ignored by officials, whereas the guy realises this isnt a normal inquiry. Realises too that if he's found out and implicated, he'll be brought up on serious charges. The Federation may turn there backs, but they probably keep a bit of evidence, that way they can always convict some-one. So he thinks, if he contacts the bosses, he doesnt have to say they bribed him, he could always say they had the passes - maybe they stole them, he thought they were real, only realised after they werent - he's sorry, but they were pros. Blah, blah, blah. Good loyal Federation citizen, get promoted (although he was probably sent away or 'disappeared' as he knew too much). M. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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Blakes7 May 2001