Blakes7 May 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

84 participants
897 discussions

Re: [B7L] Famouse Sand Pit (no! not _that_ one!)
by Sally Manton 13 May '01

13 May '01

Ellynne wrote: <But, that pales beside the greater issue - The B7 characters are clearly reincarnated a few centuries later in Dune!> Eeep. That's one I *hadn't* thought of :-) <Duncan Idaho is clearly Vila (who is paying off his bad Karma debt for cowardice by being reincarnated as a heroic type [again, and again, and again . . . he's got a lot of debt to pay off])> Oh, I *love* this idea, with or without the Dune tie-in (actually, if you wanted to write a fanfic on the idea of Vila being reincarnated like this ...) <Blake was Leto (guy tried to change the system for the better, failed).> Of course. <Avon was rather peeved to come back as Paul (IMO, especially as Cally was Jessica and Dayna was Chani).> Avon would probably be peeved no matter who he came back as. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Jabberwocky - MIndRape
by Judith Proctor 13 May '01

13 May '01

Part two of Jabberwocky is now up in the Hermit library. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '03 21-23 Feb 2003 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

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Ebay B7 nice collectible--# 1144417913
by JEB31538＠cs.com 13 May '01

13 May '01

Blake's 7 on Ebay has a wonderful collectible--item # 11444417913. It is Chris Boucher's handwritten first draft (91 pages) of "Star One." I think this is something any serious collector of B7 would like to have. I'm almost tempted to bid on it myself, but I am trying not to collect scripts since they up a lot of space to keep. But if you've got the space and the money, then this is truly a one of a kind item for you. I'm going to slap my fingers and let this item go to some other lucky fan. Joyce

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iains episode reviews: TWB
by Sally Manton 13 May '01

13 May '01

Iain W wrote, amongst other good things: <Another indication of imperfect drugging is the public address announcement: "President to answer questions on population control". So clearly there are people questioning authority and public announcements about it - so even the fact that people question authority is not hidden. This implies that the administration needs some sort of popular support. Is it possible that there are elections to some positions within the administration? So Blake may be fighting a democracy (albeit a pretty dodgy one).> Possibly not. Oh they could have 'elections' (I would imagine that the 'right' candidate wins, however, even assuming there's more than one.) Two little points here: firstly, the Federation does strike me - at least before the War - as interested in *appearing* to have the interests of its subjects at heart (among other things, the fact that prisoners *are* shipped off to prison planets is IMO a pretence of 'clemency', life instead of death). This is not that unusual in dictatorships, which often put a heavy emphasis on appearing to be benevolent and wonderful on one hand, and ruthlessly stifling dissent with the other. (For instance, both the Soviet and Nazi secret service acted almost in a PR situation, expending much time and effort to try and find out what ordinary people *genuinely* thought - a task not made easier by their other task of suppressing any such genuine thought that tended to be critical). I can see the same sort of thing in the Federation (remember the work-over Blake got, to make him publicly recant. And this would quite likely be more focused in the centre of their power base, Earth, than in the Outer Worlds. Secondly, <g> though it is good for the image to have the President appear alert and open to people's concerns, and ready to address them, we don't hear what *kind* of questions he is going to answer, do we? "Dear Mr President, would you like to tell your loyal subjects what wonderful successes we have had over the last few months in this vital area, all due to your foresight and brilliant planning, and how everyone listening can do their part in the next all-important step towards the great and orderly future you and your loyal council have nobly dedicated your lives to giving us?" _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Marriage and the federation
by Ellynne G. 13 May '01

13 May '01

>Ellyne said marriage would have advantages for the Federation >>2) If people know their misbehaviors may come back and >>hit their family, they are less likely to commit them. >Though of course people who are not married still have families, and live >with them, and love them just as much and everything, so this would apply >anyway. >Or do you mean that the Federation would find it harder to identify who >those families were? Sorry, I _try_ to keep my posts down to manageable size, and then I cut out essential elements. Now, starting with the usual disclaimer that anthropology is only an off and on interest of mine, making knowledge gaps inevitable, let's get on with this. I suppose I should have said that the Federation is likely to encourage the idea that certain male-female pairings should come with a life long commitment attached and with strong, vested interests (both social and economic) in the other's well being. As far as I know, in most cultures where such exists, this kind of union is usually referred to as a 'marriage' (or that's how they're commonly translated). The commitment angle is the one I see as of primary interest to the Federation. Look, I don't know everything I'd like to about human cultures, but how we organize our families and what obligations we recognize ourselves as having to them and others is one of the core elements of social structure. There are some cultures that go to the extreme that only blood relatives count, cultures where women were referred to as strangers in their husbands' homes because they weren't his blood (or, conversely, where fathers were of little account [however, matrilineal cultures are another, underdocumented-from-unprejudiced-sources-before-they-were-in prolonged-contact-with-patrilineal-cultures story]). There are cultures where relatives, by blood or marriage, are the _only_ people you can ask for help or who aren't considered competitors. Anyhow, what we're talking isn't just the personal element of the relationship, however powerful that may be. We're talking about having as many reasons as possible to see your social and economic (and assorted other) fortunes as coinciding with another individual's, a view supported by as many _outside_ forces as may reasonably be brought to bear. Ergo, a legally recognized union of a type with major legal and social baggage. Then, there's the children angle. The term 'legitimate,' when used in reference to children, originally had legal connotations, whether a child was considered a legitimate _heir_. It's quite possible for a child to be a legitimate heir without being what we usually think of the word legitimate as meaning (and, before anyone says, I quite agree that stigmatizing a child for parental behavior is low). Also, it's quite possible for a child to be 'legitimate' without being a legitimate heir (morgannatic marriage, female children, the list is long). Since status for minors and things such as their access to education and other privileges (medical help, the Federation version of social security, etc) are dependent on to what extent they have claim on their parents' status, I assumed a governmental interest in the issue. Also, if there is a reasonable social expectation of having heirs for whatever reasons (duty to the state or to the family), which children can be _heirs_ is of greater interest (in our own culture, we still consider it a greater tragedy for a father to lose his only _son_ [and don't complain about the justice of it. I'm just stating a fact, not my opinions on it]. Also, consider the military's sole surviving son rule). These children are also greater leverage against the parent. I wouldn't call it fair, but there are enough precedents that I would call it true to how a lot of people act with the right cultural conditioning. >>Would a delta >>grade who had a child out of wedlock or whatever receive any kind of >>state help? Unlikely. >Would a Delta who conceived a child *in* wedlock receive any state help? >Presumably the same rules would apply: in either case if she or her partner >were unemployed they wouldn't be able to feed the child without help. A >marriage contract doesn't make it cheaper to live. Again, let me clarify. From things Vila has said (like about getting his pleasure hours in the rec center or whatever) and because I like to use ancient Rome as a partial basis for the Federation, I assume there is a sort of 'bread and circuses' mentality. This also means things about citizenship - there were lots people -even rich, important people - in the Roman Empire who weren't citizens. A _citizen_ of the Federation and Earth (JMO, but I think there were citizens who wouldn't have had automatic rights to Earth residency and that living on Earth was generally cushier), even low grade, I'm thinking would have certain claims on the state. This is just an idea I had for a story, but I'm thinking they had claims to some kind of housing and food coupons, possibly a few other things. When I was first kicking this idea around, I thought that the Federation would come down very hard on anyone it saw as not fulfilling various legal requirements - I was passing on what I saw as some of the nastier ideas in the welfare reform debate a few years ago (see Swift's 'A Modest Proposal' for details). I then combined this with the economic problems Rome faced providing bread when the empire was no longer expanding. More specifically, I was working with a story in which Avon's mother was nonFederation (a soldier from Helotrix who had to go underground after the Federation took over her world the first time). She wound up on Earth with false papers passing her off as a delta. Without going into lengthy side stories about Avon's father and how they were seperated during this time, she got stuck on Earth after finding out she was pregnant. To clarify her difficulties, she could 1) Find a way to support her child (so long as she didn't make claims for him, she still received her own food ration and a hole in the wall [literally, in the domes] room) without using any of her job skills that would show she probably wasn't the grade she seemed _and_ without falling afoul of the law, which would have her declared unfit and her child taken into 'care.' 2) Give up and hand him over to a life of abuse, assuming he survived. Look, we all know I'm the little arch-conservative. Do you think arch-conservatives are blind to social injustices? Do you think we don't have axes to grind? Or that welfare 'reforms' that seem likely to penalize children when they kick in in the very near future don't make me furious? Or that, when I consider the Federation likely to perpetuate the same kind of evils, I mean it as a good thing? I know I'm not always the best at expressing myself, but have I really done that poor a job? Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Gan and Killing
by Leia Fee 13 May '01

13 May '01

I said... >>I'm not quite sure where the idea that Gan got the limiter because he was >>a danger to woman came from. the Jeeny said... >That would have been Terry Nation and Chris Boucher. Forgive me. I didn't realise they actually had said as much. I was under the impression that it was just a theory you (and others) had. Jenny said... >He also appears to kill someone with a spear in Cygnus Alpha. Accepted. But I'm not sure what more that proves other than the limiter is not 100% reliable. >>b) he goes for Cally while his limiter is on the fritz >And Jenna earlier on. He only attacks Blake when he tries to stop him. All right. >And in all 18 episodes never gives her name, or refers to it again. Using lack of evidence as evidence in itself is not usually a good idea. None of the others talk about their past with the Federation much either. To use the only other example we have of the crew's past love lives...how often does Avon speak about Anna other than in the episode we actually see her? > And it seems a little extreme that he kills one guard and for that he's sent to >Cygnus Alpha with a limiter implant. A life sentence for theft is a little heavy too but the Federation aren't exactly strong on prisoner rights from what we see of their justice system. >If Gan has been fitted with a limiter there is a reason for it. Indeed. But the evidence doesn't point for certain at that reason being a violent hatred of women. Jenny wrote... >A monk killed Kara who showed affection to Gan. That's where Gan got >the story from. Or the situation mirrored his past and he was so enraged by it happening again that *thats* why he was able to overide the limiter and kill the guy. Just pointing out possible alternate interpretations here. >No, but we are talking about Gan's cover story here. In TWB Blake states >"I'm innocent, of what I was charged with anyway". Vila replies, "We have >something in common then.We are all victims of a miscarriage of justice." >"It's true!" Protests Blake, "Of course it is!" says Jenna. They don't >believe him, because they know that many guilty people, even after >conviction, will protest their innocence. They also know that many will lie >about what they are convicted of. TWB was written and script-edited by the >same two people who wrote and script-edited all of the first season. Er, are you saying that since Jenna did not initially believe Blake was innocent that Gan must therefore be guilty? Sorry, I don;t quite grasp the point you're trying to make. > When he is strangling Cally it is a deliberate act. He is >smiling and he's enjoying it. What kind of limiter malfunction would do >that? If the limiter is meant to prevent a particular behaviour then >presumably that's the behaviour we'll see when it malfunctions. If it had stopped working completley then that would be true. We know it is still doing *something*, Avon says as much. It is still activel but sending scrambled signals. The brain is remarkably complex and I wouldn't presume to speculate on what messing with it might do to persons personality and behaviour. >This is not the illogical actions of a man who has been driven to >violence by pain caused by a malfunctioning limiter. These are deliberate >actions. They have a pattern. Yes they are calculated, violent, whatever. We assume from the fact he has the limiter he is unstable and violent. I personally would not think killing someone in revenge is the act of an amiable friendly chap. I'm not actually arguing that point. What I'm disagreeing with is the idea that his violence is specifically targeted at women. > Yes it could have, but it wasn't. The writer has >set it up so that it is Cally and Jenna who are attacked. I hesitate to say it, loving the show as I do...but it is pretty typical for the girlies to get into trouble and need rescuing...even in B7. I don't read much into it. >The word "my" is the possessive. I talk about 'my partner' too. Doesn't mean I think I own him or am going to top him or anyone else if I lose him. Again I think you're reading too much into a simple phrase. >No, the entire theory is bullet proof. Doesn't automatically make it right. There is just as much evidence for a number of views. Leia

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Gan and Killing
by Leia Fee 13 May '01

13 May '01

>It (the idea that Gan's limiter is to dtop him hurting women - Leia) is one of the >semi-regular floating pieces of speculation that gets kicked >around in the archives every so often Ah one of *those* ;-) Maybe I'll shut up about it before we all need limiters ourselves then <grin> Leia

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Re: [B7L] Re: sympathy ploy?
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

"Sally Manton" wrote > > > >Helen suggested of Gan's headaches: > > > >Was thinking about this and wondered if anyone else agrees that - as long > >as the limiters's properly fixed - Gan would in fact be by far the easiest of > >Our Heroes to sail the galaxy with in reality? > >Keeping your temper and being calmly reasonable when everyone around you is > >being as annoying as hell may not be as exciting as Avon's acidic quips and > >the A-B tempest, but it would be far easier to take for long periods at > >close quarters ... Until that is the stress of having to put up with you calling him Sweetums Gandidyams finally blows his limiter and he pulls your head off :-) Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Gan and Killing
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Steve Kilbane wrote: > > smiling and he's enjoying it. What kind of limiter malfunction would do > > that? > >An logic inversion. Instead of repressing an impulse and generating pain, >it could be reinforcing the impulse and causing pleasure. This sort of >thing is common in digital systems (such as overflowing a numerical value >from one end of the numerical range back to the opposite end of the range) >or in analogue systems (where feedback loops cause waveforms to thrash all >over the place, rather than settling down on a nice, predictable signal). > >I'm not saying this is what's happening; I've giving a reason why it could >be a plausible result of malfunction. True and a very interesting and intelligent view (thanks!) but as I said earlier there's always an alternative explanation present-- the double game. It does explain Avon's take on it though, since he's a computer person too. > > If the limiter is meant to prevent a particular behaviour then > > presumably that's the behaviour we'll see when it malfunctions. > >Alas, by no means the case. If it's plugged into his brain, and it's >broken, >then frankly, anything could be going on. If it's just dead metal, and >being >inert, then yes, you could imagine that Gan would be in the same state as >he'd be without the limiter (albeit very slightly heavier...). But if it's >generating bad control signals, then (a) it could be randomly inhibiting or >otherwise modifying behaviour, or (b) it could be completely screwing up >his >brain chemistry. In which case, it's unfair to infer Gan's original >character >from his actions while it malfunctions. Not unfair, but a possibility. There are many possibilities given in the episode as to why this is happening; this is one. Jenny. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Harriet Bazley (Deceased) wrote: > >Given that the purpose of the limiter is to prevent the implantee from > >killing, No, it isn't. Gan kills in Cygnus Alpha. and that it apparently functions by inducing some kind of > >mental override when it comes to the actual deadly impulse, No. it doesn't. Gan kills in Cygnus Alpha. And he gets into combat, even deadly combat, situations without having any kind of mental override. it always > >seemed natural to me that when it malfunctioned it was those precise > >impulses previously tampered with that were being affected. In other > >words, that a device intended to stop a man from being able to bring > >himself to kill at all, even in self-defence, instead made him *want* to > >kill. That is farcical. Anyway, the limiter doesn't stop him killing. Gan kills in Cygnus Alpha. And what about the I-was-enjoying-that line in Deliverance? > >Jenny is correct in saying that Gan is not merely lashing out in pain, > >though I'd guess from his reactions that he *is* probably suffering > >pain as well; He doesn't look particularly pained when strangling Cally. In fact he looks as if he is enjoying himself! > >he is clearly homicidal during the limiter malfunction. Could be right there. > >Harriet Bazley == I love Pylene-50. I drink it all the time. It helps me not to think about anything nasty == > > >I agree with what you say; No you don't. see above. > > but I will condemn to the death the manner > >in which you choose to say it. Groovy! Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Blakes7 May 2001