Blakes7 May 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

84 participants
897 discussions

Famouse Sand Pit (no! not _that_ one!) (was Gan's woman)
by Ellynne G. 12 May '01

12 May '01

Wow, I'm on a chatty roll. This is not about Gan's relation with any unnamed females, even if that's how it started. About whether the phrase "my woman" was demeaning in 1979 or in the B7 future (or in the 1979 translation of the B7 future which, of course, really happened/will happen), in Dune there's a part where Gurney Hallek is asked to play the song "My Woman" for a dying man (that's not what this is about either). It's a sentimental ditty, especially for all these guys who know that they're likely to never see their homeworld or the 'girl they left behind' again (even the ones who are likely to live to the end of the chapter). At any rate, I don't think Gurney was being asked to play a really demeaning, crude, drinking song. But, that pales beside the greater issue - The B7 characters are clearly reincarnated a few centuries later in Dune! (that's what this is about) Gurney, since he uses the phrase "my woman" must be Gan! Duncan Idaho is clearly Vila (who is paying off his bad Karma debt for cowardice by being reincarnated as a heroic type [again, and again, and again . . . he's got a lot of debt to pay off]) Orac was Thufir. Blake was Leto (guy tried to change the system for the better, failed). Blake's lawyer was Yueh. Avon was rather peeved to come back as Paul (IMO, especially as Cally was Jessica and Dayna was Chani). Soolin was Alia. Tarrant was Feyd (who, in Paul's opinion, talked too much) And, before the TN descend in mass, I would like to point out how often we're told Feyd would have been dandy with better parenting. Oh, and Travis was Fenring. And Servalan was his wife. The worms were all those large plot devices they were forever running into. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

1 0

Maybe I'm Too British...
by Harriet Bazley 12 May '01

12 May '01

I've had enough. Once is an accident - twice is bad luck - three times is too much. Since the beginning of the year I have witnessed almost constant flame-wars on this Lyst of a peculiarly distasteful kind. I have kept silent and endured without the aid of so much as a kill-file. I hoped for entertainment here, and I have found only arguments ad hominem and cringe-making bitchiness of a kind I never witnessed in years of all-female schooling. I know it only takes a handful of rotten apples to spoil the barrel, but unfortunately there appears to be an endless supply. Don't bother to follow up to this. I'm unsubscribing. -- Harriet Bazley

1 0

Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses ... (long)
by Jenny Kaye 12 May '01

12 May '01

Claudia wrote > >: Is that right? > > > >: > >since it could have been > >: > >caused by scrambled brain impulses caused by the malfunction. > > > >: No. It's a deliberate act. The malfunction didn't "scramble his brain > >: impulses," it removed his restraints. > > > >That's your interpetation. Not just mine, and it's one that fits all the facts. Look at the script too-- Avon says the Limiter is "feeding scrambled impulses into his brain." It's not the *brain's* impulses that are scrambled. It's the limiter's. The text doesn't give us to believe that > >we're seeing the true Gan. I'd grudgingly allow that it leaves the > >possibility open, Why grudgingly? but on the other hand we have: > > > > AVON: It's not my field, but if I am right, then the limiter is > > feeding scrambled impulses into his brain. > > > >which pretty directly contradicts you. No it doesn't, see above. >The other couple times Avon > >says "if I'm right", he is. ;-) He also says, "It's not my field". If the author didn't want to generate doubt then there would have been no qualification. Later Professor Kayn, an expert (one of the exclusive specialists to whom Avon defers earlier in the episode, saying that they're the ones who know about this), says regarding Gan: KAYN: Farron is a bureaucratic fool. I'm talking about stability, Renor, stability. With no stability there is no progress. RENOR: Progress to what? Brain implantation? KAYN: A dangerous psychopath? Certainly. Or would you prefer he'd been executed? > >OTOH, I agree with you regarding Jenna and the manacles. > > > >But not with your tone. It took me two hours to answer that letter. If you think my tone was off then that's why. Anyway, it takes two to tango. If people are going to send a letter which is sharp, they shouldn't get all moral when they get a reply which is somehow less than friendly. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

3 2

the killfile is your friend
by Julia Jones 12 May '01

12 May '01

+----------+ | PLEASE | | DO NOT | | FEED THE | | TROLLS | +----------+ | | | | .\|.||/.. (c) 1999 Residents of NANAE -- Julia Jones "I wouldn't recognise a subtle hint if it dressed up in a purple tutu with green stripes and danced on my keyboard singing 'subtle hints are here again'." Stig Valstad, wibbling in alt.fan.pratchett

2 1

Playng the Game (and Not)
by Dana Shilling 12 May '01

12 May '01

Sally, thank you for your post about "playing the game"--it summarizes beautifully what I enjoy about B7 list discussion. Stephen, thank you for your ongoing contributions of civilized rationality. I don't think there's anything invidious about speculating about any sort of fictional event. Some speculations have more canonical evidence to support them than others, some are more inter- esting than others, that's all. Some items of fanon are widely held, others held by a small group or just one proponent. Personally, my major identification with fandom is as a fanfic writer, so to me the best possible list post is one that sparks off a good idea for a story. -(Y) PS: Re Gorillas--EVERYTHING I've ever heard about Gareth Thomas leads me to believe that he's a talented actor and a warm, delightful, and charming human being. But that doesn't change my mind about Blake in any way.

3 2

Re: [B7L] Gan and Killing
by Jenny Kaye 12 May '01

12 May '01

Leia Fee wrote: > >Been following the discussion on Gan, limiters, killing and the phrase 'my > >woman' and felt the need to chip in. > > > >I'm not quite sure where the idea that Gan got the limiter because he was a > >danger to woman came from. That would have been Terry Nation and Chris Boucher. I recall that in his words he was given it > >because he killed a Federation guard after said guard killed 'his woman'. That's what Gan says, but then he says something else when lying outside the capsule, and if Stephen Date writes back to me, reprinting the relevant dialogue, I'll go through it. (I could do this myself, but I'm too lazy) > >The evidence for him having a desire to murder women seems to come from the > >evidence that... > > > >a) he killed the guard so is capable of killing - hence the limiter. He also appears to kill someone with a spear in Cygnus Alpha. > >b) he goes for Cally while his limiter is on the fritz And Jenna earlier on. He only attacks Blake when he tries to stop him. > >c) he uses the phrase 'my woman' when talking about the woman the guard > >killed. And in all 18 episodes never gives her name, or refers to it again. > >I'm not convinced these add up to him being a killer of women for the > >following reasons. > > > >a) He took revenge on the guy who killed the woman, which seems to imply > >he cared about her enough to want revenge 1/ We only have Gan's word for this. And it seems a little extreme that he kills one guard and for that he's sent to Cygnus Alpha with a limiter implant. Lets look at it another way. Let's pretend Vila is captured by the Federation in the middle of series three. Does it sound likely that he would be fitted with a limiter, because he has killed by that point. I don't think it does. If Gan has been fitted with a limiter there is a reason for it. 2/ In Cygnus Alpha Kara kisses Gan. She then later shouts a warning to him as a guard throws a spear. The spear kills Kara. A little later Gan is seen bearing down on a spear, the point of which is out of shot of the camera. This is known in the trade as foreshadowing. It is giving you clues for what is to come. What happens can be described as follows: A guard killed Gan's woman. A monk killed Kara who showed affection to Gan. That's where Gan got the story from. - no one seems bothered that Avon > >wanted to do the same to the guy who killed *his* > >girlfriend/partner/woman/significant other. No, but we are talking about Gan's cover story here. In TWB Blake states "I'm innocent, of what I was charged with anyway". Vila replies, "We have something in common then.We are all victims of a miscarriage of justice." "It's true!" Protests Blake, "Of course it is!" says Jenna. They don't believe him, because they know that many guilty people, even after conviction, will protest their innocence. They also know that many will lie about what they are convicted of. TWB was written and script-edited by the same two people who wrote and script-edited all of the first season. > >b) Cally was the one who happened to be looking after him when he came to > >and released him, it doesn't follow that he was after her particularly > >because she was female. He has a bash at several of the others too if I > >recall. 1/ He fights with the others on the flight deck, but that is after he has attacked Jenna and after they have intervened. When he is strangling Cally it is a deliberate act. He is smiling and he's enjoying it. What kind of limiter malfunction would do that? If the limiter is meant to prevent a particular behaviour then presumably that's the behaviour we'll see when it malfunctions. 2/ When he finds Avon he beats the shit out of him. He then, ignoring Avon's protests, attacks the computers. Gan has rationalised that computers mean something to Avon. He then comes at Avon, using the computer links as a club. This is not the illogical actions of a man who has been driven to violence by pain caused by a malfunctioning limiter. These are deliberate actions. They have a pattern. 3/ Cally is attacked when she is on her own in the medical unit. Jenna is attacked when she is on her own aboard the flight deck. The alternative explanation is that "yes but they just happened to be the ones present there when Gan went mad. It could have been Vila. It could have been anyone." Yes it could have, but it wasn't. The writer has set it up so that it is Cally and Jenna who are attacked. > >c) The interpretation of 'my woman' is as has been opbvious on the Lyst > >controversial at best and doesn't automatically imply possesiveness l The word "my" is the possessive. > >I could of course be wrong but there does seem to be rather a lot of adding > >up two and two to make five going on. No, the entire theory is bullet proof. And I should know. I fought against it for three weeks offlist. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

1 0

Re: [B7L] Re: sympathy ploy?
by Jenny Kaye 12 May '01

12 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > There will usually be a secondary reason BTW, but > > > although the reasons for that headache changes, the context will always > >be > > > the same. Gan is alone. Gan is alone with a woman. > > > > >One way to try to get attention. One way to take your time killing a victim. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

1 0

Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses ...
by Jenny Kaye 12 May '01

12 May '01

M wrote Stephen Date (I'm a bit confused as to whose talking here, but I'll answer it anyway.) wrote: > >IMO - Gan is mentally altered because of the limiter malfunctioning. That is one of a number of explanations put forward in Breakdown. As I > >see it, Gan, although can't hurt another, Yes he can. He fights with people. Knocks them out. Causes them pain. Appears to kill someone in Cygnus Alpha. couldn't have been altered to be > >that good while still leaving him with thoughts against the Federation. He doesn't have thoughts against the Federation. That's a fallacy. He sticks with Blake because, "I have to, I want to stay alive and to do that I need people I can rely on. I can't be on my own." And where does it say that the security guard he killed was Federation. "Oh, that's bloody obvious! What other security guards would there be?" The security guards we see at Vaga's court perhaps? We have so little information on what actually happened with Gan, that he could just as easily have been making it up out of whole cloth based on the events of Cygnus Alpha. The monk that killed Kara becomes the guard that kills his "woman"; at no time in the script for Cygnus Alpha is Gan told Kara's name. We have a plausible story from Gan which resembles the events of Cygnus Alpha either by coincidence or design, but that's all we have. If > >they'd altered him that much why doesn't he sing the Federations praises. Because Gan is not a political enemy of the Federation. > >Further to this when I listened to The Mark of Kane - you know, well some > >of >you know, when Gan's described as a psychopath, I felt this was abhorrent > >to the character I think it fits exactly. I knew and at the end, a;though this is totally me reading > >into it, what the guy means by Gan being his friend, is that the other guy > >was lying about a good guy and so it doesn't matter he's dead (sorry cant > >remember the exact quotes, havnt listened to it in a while). I think Stevens and Tully were playing the double game as well. What you have in 'The Mark of Kane' and 'Blake', is the idea that Blake doesn't trust people anymore. He has lost his faith in human nature. The idea that Gan was the Catstrangler is another attack on Blake's faith. Blake had a man aboard his ship who was really a sadistic killer, and Blake never knew it. But he's also not entirely sure that it is true, and what this says about his new friend Tando. In 'Blake' he appears to have reached a decision. Blake shoots Tando down. "Oh, it was Tando you killed. -- He was worse than the people he hunted." Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

1 0

Re: [B7L] Re: 'woman'
by Jenny Kaye 12 May '01

12 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > >Isn't it mysogynistic to claim the use of the word 'woman' indicates > >mysogyny? Using the word 'woman' isn't mysogynistic, it's the context and the characters who say it. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

1 0

Re: Marriage and the Federation: summary
by Tavia 12 May '01

12 May '01

Canonically married: Hal Mellanby and Dayna's mother (Aftermath) Groff and wife on Xaranar (DotG): not sure whether they count as Federation? Sula and Chesku (RoD) All the other examples were either obvious lies (Avon/Chevron and Dayna in Powerplay) or clearly outside the Federation social structure (Nina and Gunn Sarr) Unknown: Maja and Varon (The Way Back) Vena and Muller (Headhunter): the reference is just to Muller's lady Maryatt (Deliverance/Orac): reference is to 'a woman and two children' and 'family' not 'wife' I think that was all? Thanks to Rita d'Orac who did a text grep.... Tavia

2 1

← Newer
1
...
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
...
90
Older →

Jump to page:

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

2002

2001

Blakes7 May 2001