Blakes7 May 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

84 participants
897 discussions

the limits of parody
by Alison Page 14 May '01

14 May '01

Jenny said - >>B7 has taken on a personal role in your lives, for twenty years or so Gan has been a character that you liked, that you felt comfortable with. Now some bitch is trying to tell you that Gan is a killer and what is worse, a killer of women. This is an attack on a friend. No it isn't, it's a comment on a fictional character. I personally find Gan rather dull, and over the 'past twenty years or so' I have been interested to come across your theory from time to time, or variations on it. Supposing you had said 'here is a completely different take on a familiar character - and guess what folks, it stands up just as well to scrutiny as your complacent ideas, and I can quote the episodes to prove it. It is just as valid an interpretation as any of you lot who think Gan is nice and safe and cuddly, and that's how I view Blakes 7, so get used to it.' That would be very interesting, and I for one would have enjoyed that. >>I'm not making this up you know. This is no self deluding "IMO" bullshit.. The pattern's there. Everything fits. But here you seem to be saying 'this is definitely the truth about Gan's character' - and that seems to me to be a meaningless statement. Where is truth held? What does 'truth' mean when we are talking about a work of fiction? These seem to be such glaring problems with your stance that I can't help but feel you are creating a self-parody. Is it just a joke? Thus I conclude (and speaking only of myself): 'I am making this up you know. This is self deluding IMO bullshit. Nothing about B7 is real. This is just a game I play.' Alison ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************

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Re: [B7L] Re: Limiters in general
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Mistral wrote: > >Steve Rogerson wrote re Spike's chip: > > > > > Wrong. When Druscilla makes her brief return, she shows him that the > >chip's power > > > is all in his mind and he can overcome it with willpower. He does just > >that and > > > kills a human. > > > >Okay, a bit off topic, but as a Spike redemptionista (see > >http://www.bloodyawfulpoet.com for details if desired) I feel the need > >to correct this. Spike did _not_ feed off a live human being in 'Crush'; > >Drusilla snapped the girl's neck before passing her to Spike, at which > >point he hesitated before deciding to drink from the dead girl. There > >_is_ some confusion over this in Buffy fandom, but the shooting script > >makes it quite clear that the girl was already dead at _Drusilla's_ > >hand. Naughty, naughty Steve. Must pay attention next time. Bad boy. > >Spike's chip, however, does function on intent to harm (although that > >may be one factor among many). Nice fudge there, Mistral. You should work for the Federation :-). In the episode 'Fool for Love' (the Spike > >origins episode, prior to 'Crush'), Spike is able to spar with Buffy, > >because he has no intent to harm her, and therefore the chip doesn't > >kick in. I'm not on Sky, so I could be wrong about this, but do you think it could have something to do with the context of the fight? Also, are we ever actually told by the people who put the chip in exactly how it works. Or is Spike (and so the audience) only going on trial and error? > >There is at least one piece of evidence in B7 that Gan's limiter may > >similarly function on intent, or more accurately, on emotion; Blake says > >in 'Breakdown': "The limiter is supposed to cut in when stress drives > >him to the point where he might kill." That's true, he does, but their are a number of theories put forward in this episode and that is just one. And BTW it is contradicted by the fact that Gan kills in Cygnus Alpha. And gets into combat situations elsewhere, without it triggering-- if Spike was in the fight in Deliverance, he'd be screaming. So the trigger appears to be > >rage, not killing per se. But Gan shows no rage when killing the monk or when strangling Cally. This would explain why he's able to indulge in > >some self-defensive actions in 'Deliverance' (and possibly 'Cygnus > >Alpha' as well), because he isn't experiencing sufficient rage to > >trigger the limiter. Then what would be the point of giving him a limiter at all? "This man got into a rage and killed somebody" well, so what? Lots of people kill other people in rages. If you are suggesting that Gan is the sort who often flies into a homicidal rage, then where's your evidence? He attacks Jenna in what is certainly interpreted as a rage by Blake, but later he is entirely calm when strangling Cally. And how many times during the series do we see Gan fly into a rage? Once, and that's debatable. We see him fight a lot, but he never appears to "lose it". He seems quite happy in fact. Also look at the fight with Blake on the flight deck in Breakdown. Gan's gurning a lot, but he isn't out of control. His fight with Blake is pretty deliberate. He's also not holding his head at all. Gan's not in pain anymore. He also uses the same neckbreaking technique on Blake that Blake uses in Cygnus Alpha (before the others arrive and he knocks them down like ninepins), and attacks Avon with the computer equipment after having smashed it up a bit-- he seems to be deliberately choosing his mode of attack. Also take a look at the part where Jenna says, "One minute he was crying with pain and then he went berserk." Gan's limiter shorts out, and now he's free. And here's something else. During Cygnus Alpha Vila stabs a monk to death. Look at Vila's face, it's the first time he's killed anybody. He's horrified. Now look at Blake. He breaks a man's neck. It take skill to do that. Blake has killed before (he breaks a guard's neck in Project Avalon too). Now look at Gan. Again, no worry there about sticking a spear in someone. In fact he's very calm indeed. Gan also has killed before. And I'm not talking about this nonexistant "Federation Security Guard" he allegedly killed "in a rage." Gan is not in a rage here. > >Another possible explanation is that the limiter had already begun to > >malfunction So why doesn't he show aberrant behaviour before this time then? - Blake also says in 'Breakdown' that it had been going bad > >for some time. No,he does not. Watch the episode. Blake says, "it's been bothering him for some time. He tried to keep it secret, but I'm sure that he was in a lot of pain." That's Blake's interpretation. But the evidence from the series indicates that the limiter will give Gan a headache if he is on his own. Or on his own with a woman. The Limiter is functioning perfectly. Blake is just misreading the signs. In Orac, after the limiter has been fixed, Gan gets a headache again. "Ha, but that was the radiation," you say. I say, look at the context (and remember the double game). Gan is in a part of the ship on his own. He has to turn on the intercom system to hear the others on the flight deck. Perhaps doing that gives him the illusion that he wasn't alone and so the pain stops. Later in that same episode, Gan hides behind the teleport bracelet rack. Again, he hates being on his own. Now I'll tell you why the limiter is acting in that way. A lot of druggies go to prison. When inside they are weaned off the drug. When they are released it's not long before they go back on it again. You ask why? Because they are returning home to an environment where drugs are commonplace and the use of drugs is accepted. What the limiter is doing is taking Gan out of the environment where he might kill. If Gan takes or lures women to the lower levels to kill them, then that means the environment the killings take place in is one that is deserted. Gan kills alone. Therefore, the limiter will cut in whenever he is alone, and so make that environment uncomfortable for him. I have spoken to people who are aware of B7 but are outside of fandom about this. It doesn't take them long to grasp the subtext. You lot however, are a different kettle of fish. B7 has taken on a personal role in your lives, for twenty years or so Gan has been a character that you liked, that you felt comfortable with. Now some bitch is trying to tell you that Gan is a killer and what is worse, a killer of women. This is an attack on a friend. You want to defend him. Fair enough, but no matter what you say, you will never disprove what I am saying. And you know why? Because I'm right. Gan is a psychopathic killer. He kills women. He doesn't rape them, but strangles them slowly. He smiles at them and looks them in the face as he does it. That's how he gets his thrill. That's why Gan was sent to Cygnus Alpha. Jenna is guilty, but she's being sent to Cygnus because she has been set up by the Terra Nostra (The Terra Nostra also being part of the Federation). Blake is being sent to Cygnus because he has been found guilty of molesting three children (the charge is most definitely false. He is really being sent because he is political. But the Federation official policy at this point is that there are no rebels.) Vila is sent to Cygnus because he is an habitual criminal. He has been caught a number of times. Locking him up doesn't work, mind manipulation doesn't work. He's a hardened case. Deportation to a penal planet is the last stop for him. Avon is a fraudster. He has also caused Security a great deal of trouble because they have wasted time and resources on him. They mistakenly thought he was political. Avon also seems to have a few things wrong in the personality department as well. Gan has an even greater psychopathic personality disorder. He lives to kill women. If there is no "official" death penalty during the first two seasons of B7 (except for Shadow smuggling-- a mandatory death penalty) then the authorities will have to deport him. But if Gan is sent to Cygnus Alpha unchecked he will be a very real danger to the crew of the transporter ship, not forgetting other prisoners. You don't want someone like that running amok on ship during an 8 month journey. Therefore you fit him with a limiter. Gan can still fight and kill, but not when he is on his own. He has to be with a social group and that social group has to approve his actions. Let's take a look at the way Gan reacts to Avalon when Jenna tears into the room and says "That's not Avalon". He's spoken to her, he's been somewhat overfriendly in fact. The woman may not be Avalon by at this point, but Gan doesn't know she's an android, or even the significance of the purple ball. But once Jenna has said those words, Gan's face distorts, he lunges himself at the woman's throat with all his might. He makes no attempt to knock her out or restrain her, he actually intends to snap her neck. The Avalon android grabs Gan's arms but he has attacked her with such strenght, that you start to hear a whirring sound from "Avalon"'s robotic arms. Even at the end of the story that whirring noise is still heard. And yet all the Avalon Android is doing in that final scene is raising its arm. That never happened before. The answer's simple. The android was damaged by Gan's powerful attack. Now imagine if the Avalon android was a real woman. Gan, on just three words from Jenna, would have squeezed the life out of her, in a matter of seconds. A woman, who up to that point had been friendly to him. A woman who, up to that point, Gan has been ingratiatingly polite to. I'm not making this up you know. This is no self deluding "IMO" bullshit.. The pattern's there. Everything fits. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: sentencing
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Julia Jones wrote: Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > >Now I'm wondering what determines whether a convicted criminal gets > > >their > > >mind messed with or gets locked up. Age? The Federation didn't seem to > > >have any qualms about messing with the kids memories to get them to > > >incriminate Blake. > > > >Here it isn't the Federation, but corrupt Federation officials at the > >highest levels - not the same thing. It is the same thing. The Federation is corrupt. What goes on behind closed doors is > >not necessarily what is allowed under official policy. I agree there. But official policy is only for show. > >Vila's psychiatric treatment seems to me to be an official part of the penal > >system, and attempt to reform him so that he is A Good Citizen, what was > >done to falsify a case against Blake was not part of the official > >system. Not the part of the "official system" that the Federation wants you to see. But it is still part of the system's nature. You can't conduct mass exterminations on the scale spoken about in TWB unless the entire system approves. They are all corrupt, and the casualness of it all provides even more evidence. You can't really draw any conclusions from what happened to the > >children in Blake's case Woolly thinking, Julia (Very comforting when worn next to the skin:-) > >other than a corrupt psychiatrist He appear to have some psychiatric training, but then he would have to if his department was involved in using memory blocks. But he also is a doctor of medicine. may have no > >qualms about abusing children in order to frame a political agitator. You're wrong. Dr Havant talks of his "department" infecting Blake with a rapidly terminal disease. Please note, his "department". And it wouldn't be Dr Havant who implants these memories into the subjects, his "department" would do it. The head of the school and the clinic would also have to be involved to arrange the visits. Blake believes that the Administration has stuck its neck out. It hasn't. For them this is just common everyday stuff. "Dictate a letter Miss Jones, and by the way, pass me that unofficial execution order." > > > Seriousness of the offence? Repeated offences? > > >Guessing from what little we've been given (Vila's treatments and > > >imprisonment, the Federation's use of mind controls in general and > > >desire to keep a labor force), the first step for nonviolent, > > >nonpolitical crimes would be take them into custody and try to revise > > >their minds to become law abiding citizens. It might even be possible to > > >do this much without a trial Possible, but to my mind unlikely. Vila talks with pride about how his brain was adjusted. The Federation would want this kind of thing to be accepted as normal, as hiding it away is dangerous. So you put the crook on trial and "for the good of the state and the good of its citizens, and ultimately the good of the recipient, the accused is sentenced to mental re-adjustment." -- after all, if you are already > > >law-abiding, it won't change you, Mentally adjusting people who may be innocent is a waste of time and could be bad publicity. Although who is to say what is "law abiding"? > >And once you've been cured of your unfortunate mental illness, you'll be > >terribly grateful to the state for your medical treatment. You'd perhaps pretend to be, but then if you aren't, who is going to listen to the protests of a common criminal? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Gan and Killing
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Leia Fee wrote: > >I said... > > >>I'm not quite sure where the idea that Gan got the limiter because he > >was a danger to woman came from. > >the Jenny said... > > >That would have been Terry Nation and Chris Boucher. > >Forgive me. I didn't realise they actually had said as much. Perhaps you should watch the series again? I was under > >the impression that it was just a theory you (and others) had. No. > >Jenny said... > > >He also appears to kill someone with a spear in Cygnus Alpha. > > > >Accepted. And it does prove that Gan has lied. > > >>b) he goes for Cally while his limiter is on the fritz > > >And Jenna earlier on. He only attacks Blake when he tries to stop him. > > > >All right. > > > > >And in all 18 episodes never gives her name, or refers to it again. > > > >Using lack of evidence as evidence in itself is not usually a good idea. It's not lack of evidence, it's negative evidence, there's a difference. We're talking a character-defining moment here. And it's very interesting that we had just seen very similar events happening on Cygnus Alpha (Gan connects with a woman whose name he doesn't know, she is killed by a guard, he kills the guard), to somebody who wasn't on Cygnus Alpha and wouldn't have seen those events. He doesn't tell Vila that story when he has the chance earlier in "Time Squad," you notice. If somebody talks about something that important in that way and never refers to it again... > >None of the others talk about their past with the Federation much either. They do when it's as important as this. And like I said, who said it was the Federation? > >To use the only other example we have of the crew's past love lives...how > >often does Avon speak about Anna other than in the episode we actually see > >her? Countdown, Children of Auron. Haven't been paying attention have you:-)? > > >If Gan has been fitted with a limiter there is a reason for it. > > > >Indeed. But the evidence doesn't point for certain at that reason being a > >violent hatred of women. I think there is a lot of evidence that it does. > >Jenny wrote... > > >A monk killed Kara who showed affection to Gan. That's where Gan got > > >the story from. > > > >Or the situation mirrored his past and he was so enraged by it happening > >again that *that's* why he was able to override the limiter and kill the guy. That would mean that the writer was working backwards. If that event on Cygnus Alpha had taken place after Time Squad, you'd have a point. But before? Also, Gan quite clearly isn't in a rage when he kills the monk. He appears quite rational. > > >we are talking about Gan's cover story here. In TWB Blake states > > >"I'm innocent, of what I was charged with anyway". Vila replies, "We have > > >something in common then.We are all victims of a miscarriage of justice." > > >"It's true!" Protests Blake, "Of course it is!" says Jenna. They don't > > >believe him, because they know that many guilty people, even after > > >conviction, will protest their innocence. They also know that many will > >lie about what they are convicted of. TWB was written and script-edited by > >the same two people who wrote and script-edited all of the first season. > > > >Er, are you saying that since Jenna did not initially believe Blake was > >innocent that Gan must therefore be guilty? Sorry, I don;t quite grasp the > >point you're trying to make. Okay. I'll try and put it more clearly then. The scene in TWB shows that the author is aware of the prison convention that most people say they are innocent even when they aren't. And that most prisoners are dismissive of other people's claims of innocence. Gan's story takes place on the Liberator flight deck. "So what?" you say, well, the context of the environment will impact on people. A prisoner who may be charged with stealing a loaf of bread may very well state, while in prison, that he is on an attempted murder charge, because that has more cachet, and will give him a bit more respect from fellow prisoners. But outside he isn't going to say that, is he? On the Liberator flight deck Gan gives Jenna a story. In the holding cell on earth, it is doubtful that she would have believed it, but by this episode a lot of things have happened. 1/ Blake's a nice guy after all and was innocent. (Though interestingly she doesn't appear to know what he was convicted of) 2/ Gan appears friendly and has helped them. 3/ Blake the leader has welcomed Gan into the crew. 4/ Gan tells a sob story about how his woman was killed and how he was unfairly convicted. Well, this all makes sense to Jenna. The Federation are bastards after all. They framed Blake. They don't care about justice. They framed Gan too. See? Makes sense doesn't it? No. They framed Blake because he was political. They haven't framed the others though. Vila even appears to admit his guilt. Avon was also justly found guilty. And so ironically was Jenna. So why frame Gan? He killed a guard? No. What's a guard? Cannon fodder. They are ten a penny. "Ah, yes", you say "but the guard represented the state." So? They could easily have done what they did with Travis. "We are good. Travis was an evil man. We are showing you how good we are by bringing this man to justice." You see? A pro keeps it simple. You don't go to the trouble of altering a crime scene to convict a big lunk like Gan. You don't spend money unnecessarily fitting a man with a limiter unless there is something to limit. And if the state is pretending to be fair (see Sally Manton's recent and very intelligent post on the matter) you don't act in such a grossly unfair way by fitting a man with a limiter and sending him to a penal colony because he killed someone that murdered his wife/lover/girlfriend/whatever. It would involve a massive conspiracy. And for what? Nothing. Now for fairness sake, lets look at the circumstances of the alleged killing. A guard kills Gan's woman. Why? Has the guard got a death wish? The entire Dome appears to be tripped out with security cameras. If a guard killed Gan's woman and is seen by security then he's going to be arrested. Or at the very least taken outside and shot. You don't want people like that in the army. They are there to obey orders, not go about killing people unnecessarily. "Okay," you say, "but we see guards shooting down people on Zondawl". Yes,we do, and what are these people? They are zonked out on drugs. Literally brain dead. All they can do is dribble. Different situation in the Domes on the earth. Here the people have more freedom. The Federation is pretending that it is fair. They want people to work, not dribble. You don't want to upset that balance by employing a homicidal guard. Anyway, the guards get plenty of chances to kill all the people they want legitimately. So, if the killing took place, it took place somewhere quiet, away from surveillance. One of the lower levels maybe. Or outside. Basically the woman would have to be alone when she was killed. You don't murder people in public. Bad publicity. But if she's alone with a murdering guard, then Gan must also have been there. He says that he killed a guard that killed his woman. Therefore he must have known who the guard was, but how? They wear masks for a start. Also this killer guard is not going to advertise the fact that he has just murdered someone either, is he? Conclusion: Gan was present at the time. So this is what we have. Gan, his woman and a guard are in one of the lower levels. Perhaps Gan and his woman were trying to escape? But where to? To the people of the Dome "outside" appears to be an alien environment. Perhaps Gan has political connections? But he never mentions them. He doesn't say, "I was part of the rebels, I tried to escape. My woman was shot in the process." That would be a great thing to say. Because it would elicit maximum sympathy in the environment he's now in. But he doesn't. Why? Because it's too much information. Blake, who is a rebel himself, might know he's lying. So Gan keeps it simple. And if it's a sob story, decorum dictates that you don't keep probing the poor guy about it. So Gan tells one person: Jenna. And one day Jenna will tell the others. "Poor Gan", says Cally, "The Federation is run by barbarians!" Jenna nods in agreement, "That implant gives him terrible headaches you know." "Does it?" "Yes, he tries to hide it but Blake's noticed as well." Cally shakes her head sadly, "Poor Gan. Have you noticed how he doesn't like being left on his own?" "It must be the trauma of what happened. Poor innocent Gan. He's not very bright, but his poor broken heart is in the right place." Actually, Gan *is* bright. Strange that. Also look at the amount of guards that were waiting for Blake when he returned from the outside. If Gan and his woman was detected trying to operate the outer door, then why would security send one guard? And why just shoot the woman? If this was the scenario then why not shoot Gan as well? After all he's just killed one of their number with his bare hands. Doesn't make sense does it? And if they are going to put him on trial, how are they going to explain his missing woman? A pro keeps it simple. If Gan and his woman were political and they were trying to escape the dome, then the guards would have just shot then both dead. No pissing about. (See the massacre in TWB) The only other scenario is that Gan was alone with a woman in the lower levels, because he took her there to kill her, and the guards found him. > > > When he is strangling Cally it is a deliberate act. He is > > >smiling and he's enjoying it. What kind of limiter malfunction would do > > >that? If the limiter is meant to prevent a particular behaviour then > > >presumably that's the behaviour we'll see when it malfunctions. > > > >If it had stopped working completely then that would be true. Thank you. We know it > >is still doing *something*, Avon says as much. It is still actively but > >sending scrambled signals. At the time Avon is looking at it, that is true. But the limiter has developed a fault. What if the Limiter is now cutting in and out? There is certainly evidence for that. Gan is quite merrily strangling Cally and then the ship lurches. Gan is thrown back, he advances on Cally again, and then he grabs his head in pain and flees. The brain is remarkably complex and I wouldn't > >presume to speculate on what messing with it might do to persons > >personality and behaviour. Yes, but we aren't really talking about a brain, are we? We are talking about a subtext, put in by two smart writers. And they *are* smart, you don't get employed by the BBC if you're thick. (Unless it's in management of course:-)) Anyway people can undergo fairly extensive brain surgery without it changing their personality. It depends on the sort of surgery and where. > > >This is not the illogical actions of a man who has been driven to > > >violence by pain caused by a malfunctioning limiter. These are deliberate > > >actions. They have a pattern. > > > >Yes they are calculated, violent, whatever. We assume from the fact he has > >the limiter he is unstable and violent. I personally would not think > >killing someone in revenge is the act of an amiable friendly chap. I agree. I'm not > >actually arguing that point. What I'm disagreeing with is the idea that > >his violence is specifically targeted at women. I think the way he reacts to Jenna, Cally and Avalon suggest that he *is* specifically targeting women. This is how Kara fits in. Gan sees a mysterious woman on Cygnus Alpha. Gan immediately leaves the group and follows her. He can't kill her of course, but; "Old habits die hard, Sinofar". "I know." When they finally meet Kara kisses him. And later shouts a warning cry, saving his life and effectively dies for him. If Gan has problems with relating to women, then what happens with Kara must have had an impact on him. She kissed him. She died for him. He doesn't know her name, but she now has a connection to him. In a sense, she could even be called "his woman". It becomes part of his mental furniture, crafted to fit in with the general pattern of self loathing and hatred. "A woman who loves me kisses me when she sees me. A woman who despises me will not. I will be attracted to her, but she will not kiss me. I am shit. I am hopeless. I am unloved.These people can see this in me. I am worthless. They secretly laugh at me. And every time I see them it tells me how worthless and unloved I am." > > > Yes it could have, but it wasn't. The writer has > > >set it up so that it is Cally and Jenna who are attacked. > > > >I hesitate to say it, loving the show as I do...but it is pretty typical > >for the girlies to get into trouble and need rescuing...even in B7. I > >don't read much into it. I can see that you love the show. But I'm going to tell you something now. So did Chris Boucher, so did Terry Nation. Most of the production was shit. But that's the BBC. If I'm allowed to go through all the episodes with everyone, and I'm not howled down by the IMO's, then you'll see what I mean. As a very good friend of mine--no stranger to production--has repeatedly hammered into my skull, "There is no such thing as coincidence in script writing." > > >The word "my" is the possessive. > > > >I talk about 'my partner' too. Doesn't mean I think I own him or am going > >to top him or anyone else if I lose him. Then why call S/he "my" then? Don't you love your partner? Do you share this person with someone else? > >Doesn't automatically make it right. I think it does. > > There is just as much evidence for a > >number of views. As I have stated before the writers are conducting a double game. But if and when we go through the series, you'll see that the weight of evidence favours Gan the woman killer. And you know why? Because it's there. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan in Breakdown
by Tavia 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen wrote: >One of the side effects of radiation sickness is >you feel very, very ill indeed. Headache, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, bleeding from mucous membranes, and death in 2 or 3 days. The limiter's probably the least of his problems. Tavia

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses ... (long)
by J MacQueen 14 May '01

14 May '01

>From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling(a)worldnet.att.net> >and the rubber duckie. You know, Dana, I'm damn glad that Avon doesn't go in for multicoloured, horizontally striped tops, and Ernie-from-Sesame-Street style hair. It's bad enough having "Rubber duckie, you're the one..." running through the back of my mind, so I don't want to start casting Tarrant as Bert, perhaps... Oh. Stop that, stop that now. Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: Limiters in general
by Steve Rogerson 14 May '01

14 May '01

Jenny says about Spike: "Thirdly, after he gets the chip in, there is no instance of him killing a human under any circumstance." Wrong. When Druscilla makes her brief return, she shows him that the chip's power is all in his mind and he can overcome it with willpower. He does just that and kills a human. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption 03, 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent Celebrating 25 years of Blake's 7 and 10 years of Babylon 5 http://www.smof.com/redemption

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan in Breakdown
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > : No. It's a deliberate act. The malfunction didn't "scramble his > > > brain : impulses," it removed his restraints. > > > > > > That's your interpetation. Based on evidence from the series. The text doesn't give us to believe that > > > we're seeing the true Gan. I'd grudgingly allow that it leaves the > > > possibility open, Good. I've established something at least. but on the other hand we have: > > > > > > AVON: It's not my field, but if I am right, then the limiter is > > > feeding scrambled impulses into his brain. > > > > > > > >Which seems sensible given that: > >1. If he is the cold blooded psychopath capable of planning the > >abandonment of friends to be killed while leaving himself looking merely > >the fool, and all the limiter did was remove his restraints, why the > >temper-tantrums in plain sight of everyone? A temper-tantrum is one thing. Strangling a woman is another. Gan believes that women despise him (the clue is given in his words in Time Squad). Therefore in return he wants to kill them. He enjoys killing them. But he can't do it because the limiter prevents him from committing a violent act without the approval of the social group he has joined. So if he can't do it himself, perhaps he can get others to do it for him. That's why he lets the Guardians terrorise Jenna in Time Squad. She goes to the capsule and calls Gan's name, but he doesn't answer. The next minute we see Gan's left hand extending up. He's awake. Gan is trying to cheat the limiter. He is standing by and allowing the Guardian to do the job for him. That way he can vacariously get his jollies. Instead, the limiter cuts in when Jenna is attacked and causes Gan pain. So that little idea didn't work. Plan B, leave the women in dangerous situations where there is a high chance that they will be attacked and killed. > > Why not pick the others off one by one, first though asleep in their cabins, then whoever is on duty > >on the flight deck. 1/ He doesn't want to get rid of the men, just the women. His attack on Avon was for a different reason: all the insults he's had to suffer from him. 2/ He can't attack someone unless he has the groups approval, or a verbal command from a group member, and even then the context has to be right. Why attack without weapons and inefficiently? He's only going to, well, get himself drugged and bound going about things > >that way. His madness, or hatred for women, is so great that once the restrainer is off, he can't help himself. > >2. The limiter is right in whatever portion of his brain controls the > >urge to kill. It deteriorates, it isn't as if it's suddenly not there; > >there's a metal irritant among his dendrites at the very least. In Breakdown the limiter malfunctions and cuts out. But before it malfunctions it gives him pain. Then Jenna comes onto the deck. Oh, dear. Gan always attacks women when they are on their own. That's why whenever he is alone, or alone in the presence of a woman, Gan gets a headache. It is conditioning him to find such an enviroment uncomfortable. When Gan is strangling Cally the limiter cuts in again. The device is faulty. It is repaired in Brakedown, but the headaches don't stop after this episode. He has them again in Orac. There will usually be a secondary reason BTW, but although the reasons for that headache changes, the context will always be the same. Gan is alone. Gan is alone with a woman. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: moloch/limiters
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Harriet Monkhouse wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > >>Kayn and Renor knows what a limiter > >>is and speak of it in a very matter-of-fact way-- not as if it's something > >>rare. Are they in on the experiment too? > > > >They're experts in neurosurgery, who should be expected to keep up with > >the latest developments. Yes but when Kayne sees the implant he immediately identifies it as a limiter, and at no point during the episode does either Renor or Kayne state that the Limiter implant is experimental. If the author wanted to put that over then you may have had something like: KAYNE: This man's got a limiter implant. RENOR: Really? So what's he doing here? KAYNE: Good question. It's one thing to accept that this is an experimental craft on a proving flight, but quite another to believe it's a test bed for limiter implants. These people aren't Federation! It's Blake and his rabble. RENOR: Are you sure? KAYNE: Of course I'm sure. Remember that story about one of the limiter test specimens escaping? RENOR: You're saying this is the one who got away? KAYNE: To right, you big bottomed bastard! RENOR: (CONFUSED) What? KAYNE: Are you a good witch or a bad witch? RENOR: (MORE CONFUSED) Eh? Are you alright Professor? KAYNE: (SWAYING FOR A SECOND) Sorry about that. Dropped out of character for a moment there. We gather from the search for help in > >Breakdown that such experts are not two a credit. When are they ever? > >>It also makes sense to conduct this experiment on Cygnus > >>Alpha as well, does it? Where there is no one to actually observe the > >>experiment? > > > >I always presumed that Gan was a guinea pig they'd finished > >experimenting with. Good point and one that Stephen Date makes, but there is still no evidence, only supposition. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date wrote: > > >--- Jenny wrote: > > > > > > > > >: No. It's a deliberate act. The malfunction > > > > didn't "scramble his brain > > > > > >: impulses," it removed his restraints. > > > > > > > > > > > >That's your interpretation. > > > > > > > > Not just mine, and it's one that fits all the facts. > > > > Look at the script > > > > too-- Avon says the Limiter is "feeding scrambled > > > > impulses into his brain." > > > > It's not the *brain's* impulses that are scrambled. > > > > It's the limiter's. > > > > > > >I have to say, given the half a dozen or so times in > > >the last couple of years that I've watched "Breakdown" > > >(how sad is that !) That the impression I got from the > > >script is that Gan's homicidal mania is caused by the > > >scrambled impulses caused by the limiter. These > > >impulses are removed by Kayn and hey presto Gan > > >returns to normal. This is entirely feasible, people > > >who suffer severe head injuries can become aggressive > > >and violent afterwards. This happened to a friend of > > >mine a few years ago after he was involved in a car > > >accident. He is now pretty much back to normal. Absolutely. The author is playing a double game. > > > > > > > > He also says, "It's not my field". If the author > > > > didn't want to generate > > > > doubt then there would have been no qualification. > > > > Later Professor Kayn, > > > > an expert (one of the exclusive specialists to whom > > > > Avon defers earlier in > > > > the episode, saying that they're the ones who know > > > > about this), says > > > > regarding Gan: > > > > > > >I think the author may be establishing the need to > > >urgently find a neuro-surgeon. Avon's competency with > > >a vor-ray scan or what ever it was, does not equate to > > >an ability to perform complicated brain surgery. Also > > >the remark is in character. "it's not my field" is > > >intellectual speak for "Whilst I have not studied the > > >subject formally, I'm probably still right". (in > > >Avon's case we can discount the probably). Ah. Disagree. Avon sometimes gets it wrong. >Nowhere do > > >Kayn or Renor suggest that Avon's diagnosis is > > >incorrect. Not directly, no. > > > > KAYN: Farron is a bureaucratic fool. I'm talking > > > > about stability, Renor, > > > > stability. With no stability there is no progress. > > > > RENOR: Progress to what? Brain implantation? > > > > KAYN: A dangerous psychopath? Certainly. Or would > > > > you prefer he'd been > > > > executed? > > > > > >Kayn also describes the crew as muderers, maniacs and > > >mindless destroyers. This is really rather inaccurate, > > >even in Season 4. Yes, but when it comes to a surgical procedure he has to be more precise. If he isn't Renor, who would know these things and with whom he is arguing, would put him right. >The expression may be an indicator > > >of Kayn's political sympathies rather than a > > >considered diagnosis. It's both. See above. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Blakes7 May 2001