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5511 discussions

H&H: Cally as Waif
by Sally Manton 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Dana wrote: <Oh, I don't know - about the first thing Avon says to Cally is that if she had hurt Blake, he would have killed her. He doesn't look like he's kidding about it.> No, but there is a spark there that is sadly lacking later - loook at the way they're *looking* at each other (especially Cally's smile). <And neither he nor Jenna seems able to get past the fact that she's an alien.> That comes from the way she ran amuck in The Web (for Avon, at least; Jenna does seems rather hostile beforehand) and yes, he gets really hostile there for a while - the way he grabs her face is fairly savage. But they both get over it faster than I would imagine is normal for Snarly. Me: <Of the three people he's closest to in the crew, two of them - Blake and Cally -> and Dana: <I think he's much closer to Vila than to Cally.> Give you three guesses who was third (and I do agree with you.) It makes it all more interesting *that* the third is the most un-crusader-ish of Our Heroes by a trillion miles; there are of course a lot of other reasons why he finds these people attractive, each in their own way, but it is notable that the person who pours most scorn on crusades does have these stronger ties to the crusaders themselves. And Helen: <Another possibility, of course, is a telepathic link being created. <snip> still, it might make Avon more inclined to trust fully.> No wish to offend, *purely* mine own opinion, but I have to say I think it would IMO drive him literally insane. The idea of having *anyone* able to read his mind would be intolerable to someone as private and as inclined to shields and misdirection as he is. It's bad enough that Blake and Vila can read him so well as it is (see that lovely moment in Breakdown, where they tumble to why he's got a list of boltholes). <the mind may be harder to censor than the mouth> Exactly. And that censorship is very very important to him ... I love Avon, but I have to say that IMO if he ever thought Cally or anyone else *could* actually get inside his mind, he'd quickly come to hate her. Even want to kill her. Or even himself, if there was no other escape. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Travis not wheelchair accessible
by Ellynne G. 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

As far as Travis' injuries go, disfiguring injuries can be as traumatic as disabling ones - sometimes more so. That's why there are support groups for women who've had mastectomies. Certainly Travis' injuries are disfiguring. We don't know whether the Federation stigmatizes disfigured people, but it would be a good bet. We don't see many people with serious injuries or deformities, but the three I can think of were all disabled as adults (Travis, Hal Melanby, and Ardus [I got the impression he'd gone blind in his old age, but I'm not positive (and am I getting his name right?]). Furthermore, they were Alpha level adults with proven skills. Ardus and Travis had a proven value to the state. Also, Ardus and Hal were not disfigured (since the Federation may have wanted Hal dead anyway, his survival may not say much about his culture, but _somebody_ was manufacturing sight aids). Certainly, Travis seems to act as though his injuries have cut him off from mainstream society. If there's subtle social pressure for him to retire from life (literally or figuratively), his vendetta may be all that keeps him going (and gives a new twist to Servalan saying there's no freedom like being a dead man [paraphrasing, I know], at least from his POV). Then, there are still questions about how good his prosthetics are. How's sensory input? Can he feel? Judging by Melanby and Ardus, prosthetics for the blind are imperfect at best. Is other sensory input limited or nonexistant? Does he suffer phantom pain? How does he feel having lost _his own_ legs and arm? Oh, and (sorry to be a little blunt here) but, speaking of mastectomies, did he suffer any other injuries which a man might consider similarly traumatic? And no wonder he had the weapon built into his hand. Without good vision in his lost eye (assuming the eye patch was some kind of artificial aid, it probably wasn't better than Melanby's), his depth perception's shot, a major weakness in a shoot out. Why not build a compensating device and incorporate it into his arm? It's basic unusualness would keep anyone from comparing it to a regular gun and noticing nonstandard issue features. Making it a part of him gives it an aura of threat that would keep anyone from questioning why he has it. Yet, as a brightly colored ring, it's the closest we see him come to clothes oriented vanity - something otherwise out of character. Come to think of it, part of Travis' breaking point is when his supposedly deadly arm becomes anything but - and when Blake, having seen it stripped and useless, dismisses Travis as not worth killing (yes, we know what Blake meant, but what was Travis hearing?). If Travis had killed Blake (and assuming no Andromedans), how long before he couldn't find reasons to keep on living? Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Twenty Moments, Etc.
by Marian de Haan 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Jacqui asked: >So who was the 'best computer person' & what became of him/her?< In Space Fall, Vila introduces Avon to Blake as the number two man in all the Federated worlds when it comes to computers. To the inevitable question who the number one is, Vila jokes: "Well, the man who caught him, of course." Like most of Vila's statements, I don't think we should take this one too seriously. If Avon really was that kind of genius, it would have been more profitable for the Federation to *pay* him the 5 million Credits to retain his services. Marian

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Re: motivating Avon
by Helen Krummenacker 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

> > Speaking of the Avon/Anna relatioship, as someone else brought up > > earlier-- it is likely she did pose herself to him as someone with > > anti-Federation political sentiments. After all, she was infiltrating > > his life to see if he *was* political. OTOH, she may have posed as a > > Crusader, someone with serious plans, or as a Waif, one whose dreams > > were dying and who needed a hero. Any thoughts by others on this? > > Dana replied: "Just a little girl from Little Rock"--someone like Lorelei Lee, who > sees her way out of poverty as attaching herself to rich and powerful > men--and Avon knows perfectly well that Anna won't leave a rich > husband unless he can provide her with a guaranteed life of luxury? > Possible, and yet my instincts say that that would be the least likely of all sorts of women to appeal to him. Because, in that case, she's choosing *money* over *him*. And if such, she might sell her love to the next high bidder to come along. That's a rather iffy sort of devotion to risk much for, especially the risk to his life that came later.

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Re: the charges against Blake (was, Take it to the Limit)
by Helen Krummenacker 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Dana said: I also wonder whether choosing that charge to fabricate had something to do with "something unfriendly" that the Federation does to convicted sex offenders. Oh, my! Is that why Blake isn't interested in Jenna? Bit worse, in a way, than losing an eye and a hand-- no wonder he's out to payback the Federation.

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Re: [B7L] Re: motivating Avon
by Sally Manton 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Joanne blessed us with: <And now we're here In this wi-i-ine, wi-i-ine, wi-i-ine cellar Dear me Glad you're here, though I fear You've put a spanner in the works ...> And I have had this going through my head *all day* ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Limiter Blake
by Ellynne G. 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:49:15 -0700 jstaylor <jstaylor(a)intsvc.com> writes: > Gan's implant isn't situated near the amygdala, the site of the > brain > actually associated with violent impulses and emotional reactions, > that > is, in the vicinity of the frontal lobes. What's it doing on his > crown? I remember being told there are some places where water pipes are put on the outside of houses to make them easier to fix when they freeze - even though this makes them much more likely to freeze than if they'd been indoors. I suppose someone on the design team said, "You know, if we put it _here_ and just have a few lead wires going _there_, it'll be easier to fix if something goes wrong. Even that hack, Kayn, could pull it off. I mean, the fact that it makes it that much more likely the subject will go into violent fits followed by slow death is kind of beside the point so long as the warranty's only for thirty days." Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Twenty moments when you know you're watching the best TV show ever made
by Marian de Haan 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Some of the following have been mentioned already, but I make no apologies because they're so good. :-) 1. Space Fall: Blake working so hard to persuade Avon to help him while Avon has already decided it's his best option but makes Blake sweat for it anyway. 2. Time Squad: The first flight deck fireworks. 3. Seek-Locate-Destroy: Rontane and Bercol. Also that first scene with Servalan and Travis. 4. Bounty: Vila preparing himself to carry out the "personal investigation". 5. Deliverance: "That seems a poor reward somehow." Avon showing unexpected humbleness. 6. Shadow: "The next one will go right down your throat!" Cally at her most ruthless. 7. Horizon: Avon's dithering until he has a face-saving reason for rescuing the others. 8. Pressure Point: Gan's death. Not so much the fact that it was Gan, but that one of the heroes could die and stay dead. 9. Trial: "Avon's gadget works!" And Avon's reaction. 10. Gambit: Avon and Vila taking the opportunity for some naughtiness behind Blake's back. 11. Star One: "Be informative, and I may let you die. You'll want that after I've shot off an arm and a leg or two." Avon at his most ruthless. 12. Star One (again): "Avon, this is stupid!" "When did that ever stop us?" Sums up the series. 13. Volcano: Avon deceiving Mori with his "guided tour of the Liberator". 14. Volcano (again): Avon fighting a space battle on his own and being comforted by Vila after getting wounded. 15. City: Bayban being miffed about Blake beating him as most wanted criminal. 16. Sarcophagus: Avon being considerate towards Cally - in his own unique way :-) 17. Sarcophagus (again): Avon defying the alien. "Make me die. There's nothing else you can make me do." On first watching this I was quite shocked that Avon was so brave. :-) (Oh, those fond memories of watching the show for the first time and not knowing what will happen next!) 18. Assassin: Avon telling Tarrant he'll back him, then sitting back while Tarrant gets a beating. 19. Warlord: Soolin's smile when Avon threatens to sacrifice her if his alliance with Zukan requires it. She's not impressed. 20. Blake: The last five minutes make the whole series unforgettable. And much, much more. Marian

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Take it To the Limit
by Dana Shilling 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Even though he's more of a Dr. Who fan, my boyfriend has seen B7, and made what I thought was a good point. If the Federation had only one limiter, or only a few, why not implant it in Blake, whose violent impulses were likely to cause a lot more damage than Gan's? And, by the way, why did the Federation have to go to the trouble of actually conditioning kids to believe that they were molested by Blake? That would make sense if there were a well-publicized show trial, where TV clips of the tearful child victims might lead to widespread revulsion against Blake. (Although why anyone would then be deterred from political subversion because of Blake's personal failings...) But in fact, the fabricated evidence was simply input into the prosecution marble that went into the Justice Machine. Perhaps they could have fabricated evidence that didn't have inconsistencies for Tel Varon to spot if they didn't have to waste time conditioning the "victims." -(Y)

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Re: [B7L] Re: the Waifing of Cally
by Ellynne G. 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:26:44 -0700 Helen Krummenacker <avona(a)jps.net> writes: > > Interesting idea that Cally got waif-ized to make her more > appealing to > > Avon....how sexist of them. Why alter *her* to fit *him* rather > than vice > > versa > > > I didn't take Ellynne's post to mean Cally was 'Waifed' to *make* > her > more appealling to Avon, by the writers. No, I didn't mean that. I think you gave some good reasons. The only one I'd add is the tendency for 'sensitive' characters, which frequently includes telepaths in SF (Mr. Bester aside), to be written as caring and less aggressive, no matter how they started. Actually, it's been great reading everyone else's posts on this subject. It also got me thinking of some of the things happening when I've been working on stories with Cally lately (nearly all unfinished, alas). Since it really irks me to find myself writing Cally this way, why am I doing it? I think part of the problem has been that I can't really work with S1 or S2 for this. Resolving this that early, for me, totally alters S3 in ways that I can't quite make fit the feel of the series. Let me emphasize, that's just ME. I don't think such stories can't be written. I just don't seem to be up to it. S3 has possibilities, but Cally's character just keeps getting bent out of shape to fit the overall story arc and leave Avon's character (and its plot motivating elements) largely unchanged (that's when I stop writing and start yelling at her to get into therapy and stop drifting into this relationship as a way to deal with her problems, especially if it means sacrificing her integrity). Although I still give the writers partial blame for making her more waifish to begin with. However, when I mess around with more AU stories, it seems to work better. I can get Avon (or his avatar) to remain true to his character while still bending enough to work with Cally. I also manage to get her to show up in a few PGP ideas, although she's usually in a bad way, depending on why events were manipulated on Terminal to make Avon think she'd died. Still, reclaiming her old self seems to be more of a theme. I _like_ strong female characters. I just find it hard to write ones who are dating Avon. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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