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Re: [B7L] Episode review - Cygnus Alpha
by Pherber＠aol.com 23 May '01

23 May '01

In a message dated 5/22/01 10:04:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time, iainwalker(a)home.com writes: > With Artix dosing the air with suppressants there must be an antidote for > the crew? What about "health and safety in the workplace" regulations for > the London's crew? Are they unionized? Now *there's* an unexplored, ready-made audience for Blake's crusade! Seriously, would the Federation tolerate any level of union activity? It could be manipulated to give the working classes an illusion of control over their own condition, while maintaining *real* power with the elite. > More hysterical dialog from the followers: > "I am the servant of your god, Neil." So who is this Neil, and why is he > god? :-). <g> Must be part of the Conspiracy...nobody told her about the penguins! Nina

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H&H: intro comments
by Susan Beth 23 May '01

23 May '01

I'm currently reading "The Complete Writer's Guide to Heroes and Heroines", subtitle: Sixteen Master Archetypes, by Tami Cowden, Caro LeFever, and Sue Viders. The theme of the book is that there are eight classical 'types' of heroes, which they call: The Chief, The Bad Boy, The Best Friend, The Charmer, the Lost Soul, The Professor, The Swashbuckler, and the Warrior. They also identify eight types of heroines: The Boss, The Seductress, The Spunky Kid, The Free Spirit, The Waif, The Librarian, The Crusader, and The Nurturer. [That the number of types is the same for men and women at first struck me as either a great coincidence OR a contrivance on the part of the authors, but then I realized that you can pair the male/female types up, one to one, with the differences between the two being due to social and gender factors. Thus: The Chief = The Boss, The Bad Boy = The Free Spirit, The Best Friend = The Nurturer, The Charmer = The Seductress, The Lost Soul = The Waif, The Professor = The Librarian, The Swashbuckler = The Spunky Kid, The Warrior = the Crusader. I admit the pairing between Bad Boy and Free Spirit isn't very good, but all the others are quite clear, so that's what is left. The exception that proves the rule, whether you use the modern sense (that is, shows the rule is true) or the older one (that is, tests and * disproves* the rule) I'll leave you to decide.] The authors also give three ways these archetypes can be used: either your hero fits into one archetype the entire story (what they call 'core'), or your hero is changed from one type to another as a result of the events in your story ('evolving'), or your hero is mostly one archetype with a minor in another, leading to internal conflicts in his motivation ('layered'.) The first reason I'm bringing all this up is that I was amused by how exactly all the main characters in B7 can be slotted into a role (except Avon, who is layered, and possibly evolving on top of it.) I'm going to go through the cast one by one, using a bunch of quotes from the book's description of each archetype to show why I think they fit - this will be long, so I'll break it into a series of posts, all headed with H&H in the subject line so you can easily delete them all if you find it boring. The second reason I'm bringing all this up is that I suspect it ties into what 'Jenny Kaye' sees as our 'conspiracy' in refusing to look at and be convinced by the evidence she so clearly sees on the screen for her alternate views on the characters (for example, Gan as psychopath, Avon *not * having the mostly-hidden good traits that some of us insist on seeing.) The authors say we all (that is, people in general) have grown up being exposed to these hero archetypes our entire lives, from nursery school tales and fairy tales and on through every book read and hour of television or movies watched. As a result we are quick to spot the telling traits, and assign a new character to the 'proper' role - which is a great help to writers. OTOH (and this is my supposition, so don't blame the writers of this book) it could be that it also introduces a bias in what we consider 'important' or 'pertinent' evidence when we watch B7. Once we have (consciously or not) decided that Gan is The Best Friend, we note and remember the details that point that way, and dismiss as unimportant or 'accidents' of production/continuity errors details that don't fit. Obviously, someone who has decided to put Gan into a different slot, such as a non-hero one I'll call Covert Psychopath, will be struck by and puts great weight on the very moments 'The Best Friend' cohort ignores. And, contrariwise, the CP people will downplay the importance of what seems like overwhelming evidence to the BF people. So, in a weird way, I guess I'm saying 'Jenny Kaye' is right that there is a 'conspiracy' and/or 'programming' that keeps the rest of us from seeing things her way. ;-) It's just that the programming/conspiracy has nothing to do with being on the B7 lists - it's part of our heritage from living in our society - AND, of course, she is just as much programmed as any of us, she just happens to be using a different subset of the 'rules' than most of us. Susan Beth (susanbeth33(a)mindspring.com)

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Re: [B7L] now heading back to costumes
by Marian de Haan 23 May '01

23 May '01

Sally wrote: >It is interesting, watching the upsurge of sartorial exuberence in late S1-S2 after the plainness of the early, Earth fashions; as Bercol and Rontane, government high-flyers, also dress very plainly, I'm inclined to think that plain, unadorned fashion is the norm there (and possibly in the Inner Worlds) for all grades, differences being in quality of material and finish, perhaps. Once we get off Earth, it all starts to get more flamboyant (the Amagons, Sarkoff and Tyce, etc).< Don't forget Coser (Weapon) - that collar! Marian

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H&H: Cally and Dayna
by Susan Beth 23 May '01

23 May '01

NOTE: all quotes are from "The Complete Writer's Guide to Heroes and Heroines." I'm leaving a lot out - most of which applies, some of which doesn't. If you want the latter, well, buy the book. It's interesting. ;-) -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Both Cally and Dayna are basically Crusaders. "Ready for action, the CRUSADER marches in. This is a heroine in the truest sense-deeds of valor are right up her alley. She is confident, tenacious and headstrong against opposition. Lines of battle have been drawn, and she never backs down from a contest." "The CRUSADER is a fighter, through and through....If she meets up with a brick wall, she goes over, under or around, but quitting is never an option." "The CRUSADER knows that action is necessary, and she is the one to get the job done. Fully prepared to stand alone against the enemy, she views those who fall short of her rigid standards with scorn. If necessary, she can become a one woman army." "The CRUSADER believes in commitment, but is much more committed to a cause than to her loved ones." Under virtues: "Courageous-This woman risks everything in pursuit of her mission. The CRUSADER faces danger, of any kind, without flinching. Brave in the face of opposition and bolder than many a man, she is fiercely resolved to win every encounter." "Resolute-the CRUSADER's determination is absolutely unyielding. She has decided which side is right and will not be swayed from her path. Her intense focus on every mission makes her an extremely formidable opponent." Under flaws: "Obstinate-The CRUSADER is not easily diverted from her mindset or her goal-no matter how misguided her ideas, actions or presumptions are." "Rash-Stopping to think is never high on her list. She rushes in regardless of the fears of those around her. Personal safety is not a priority for the CRUSADER. Her reckless attitude might win the battle, but it can also lose the war." "Opinionated-She has no trouble saying what she really thinks regardless of the wisdom of speaking up at a particular moment." Among suggested occupations: revolutionary. Where they differ is that Dayna has a touches of "Spunky Kid", while Cally is purely a Crusader. -- -- -- -- -- Okay, that's the end of the recurring women. You'll notice that, unlike the men, there is quite a bit of overlap. If you consider them to fall into two pairs, Jenna & Cally and Dayna & Soolin, both pairs include a Seductress and a Crusader. Two reasons this might be so occur to me. First, to the writers, Seductress might be *the * main reason to give females a place on the crew (or rather, for having actresses on screen), and given that they were fighting, Crusader is a natural archetype to fall into. Second, there would be major problems having some of the other heroine archetypes on the ship. For example: A Boss would be in natural conflict with Blake over leadership - which would be okay, except that that plot niche was already filled by Avon. And the remaining archetypes are poor meshes with the needed abilities to survive a rebel lifestyle: A "core" Spunky Kid, with her optimism, liking and being liked by everyone, a cheery and happy soul, simply doesn't fit into the B7 universe. Dayna has touches of this, but being gleeful over killing and weapons of destruction doesn't fit well. It's possible you could decide she has enough of the Spunky Kid in her to call her a layered archetype. The Free Spirit, an impulsive, emotionally guided cheerful type also doesn't fit into a band of rebels very well. Trusting that 'things will work out for the best no matter what' would make for a very short career as an outlaw. The Waif, who drifts through life in need of being rescued-she wouldn't even last as long as the Free Spirit. Finally, the Nurturer, someone who always puts the needs of the others before her own, well, anyone that self-sacrificing would end up dead pretty quick, too. A Nurturer has worthy talents and makes life pleasanter for those around her, but she isn't very useful in pulling off raids on military targets. Come to think of it, Zen probably was a Nurturer. Hmm. I guess ORAC would be the Professor supreme, and Slave....nothing comes to mind. I guess it just isn't a hero. Susan Beth (susanbeth33(a)mindspring.com)

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H&H: Soolin
by Susan Beth 23 May '01

23 May '01

NOTE: all quotes are from "The Complete Writer's Guide to Heroes and Heroines." I'm leaving a lot out - most of which applies, some of which doesn't. If you want the latter, well, buy the book. It's interesting. ;-) -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Soolin seems to be a layered character, The Librarian plus The Seductress. This is somewhat contradictory, since one of the telling traits of The Librarian is downplaying sexuality and distrusting her own attractiveness, but there it is. I've already done the Seductress quotes for Jenna, but I'll repeat them at the end for those who get this message first. As for The Librarian: "She tends to think that only she has the answers. More often than not, she is right, but she can be a bit stubborn about considering other opinions. After reviewing her options, she chooses a path that suits her best. Once on course, she does well." "Used to getting things done on her own, self reliance is her middle name. And she likes it that way. After making all her decisions for so long, the thought of asking for assistance appalls her." Under virtues: "Efficient-The LIBRARIAN gets things done. She does not procrastinate, she does not dither, she does not make excuses. She looks a matter over, decides how best to accomplish the task, and then she does it. Making it look easy is one of her specialties." "Serious-She is not one to fool around. Life is work, not a walk in the park." "Dependable-Count on this woman. She never leaves anyone in the lurch. Her careful precision insures that the project is done exactly the right way with no mistakes. Once given a job, the LIBRARIAN sticks with it until certain it is completed and correct." "The LIBRARIAN: + is solitary + is analytical + is detail oriented" "Introverted, she is not distracted by outward appearances. She is able to take in fine points overlooked by more outgoing types." [The rest of this message is a repeat from Jenna's message, for Soolin's Seductress layer.] "The SEDUCTRESS holds enormous power over others, hypnotizing them with her charm and desirability. She is mysterious, manipulative and bewitching." "Men feel more powerful and desirable in her company, because she deliberately sets up that illusion. She may have a specific purpose in bewitching her man, but she can turn on the charm whenever she wants, even if she is not interested in anything particular." Under virtues: "Assertive-The SEDUCTRESS has learned that to be on the offensive is to her advantage. .... She does not care about being in charge as long as she is in control of her own destiny." "Strong-This woman is a survivor. The SEDUCTRESS does whatever is necessary to get what she needs. Enduring whatever she has to, she makes full use of her powerful attractions and mental acuity. When smoke clears, she is still standing." Under flaw: "Cynical-The SEDUCTRESS is jaded. Scornful of others, she trusts only her own judgment. She is suspicious of everybody, especially men. In her experience, everyone is in it for themselves." "The SEDUCTRESS: + is independent and smart + is able to size up people quickly and accurately + is cool and calculating + is very, very savvy" Susan Beth (susanbeth33(a)mindspring.com)

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H&H: Jenna
by Susan Beth 23 May '01

23 May '01

NOTE: all quotes are from "The Complete Writer's Guide to Heroes and Heroines." I'm leaving a lot out - most of which applies, some of which doesn't. If you want the latter, well, buy the book. It's interesting. ;-) -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Overall comment on the women of the crew: as a group, they appear to be rather watered-down versions of the heroine archetypes, compared to the men who seem more full-blown. I suspect this is a result of their being sidelined and given relatively less action and fewer lines of dialog - they were thought of as supporting characters rather than as heroines and not showcased. Frequently they start out closer to the Archetype's pattern and then get weakened by being made more caring, nicer, more passive. Still, it's pretty easy to see which way they were tending. Jenna is The Seductress. "The SEDUCTRESS holds enormous power over others, hypnotizing them with her charm and desirability. She is mysterious, manipulative and bewitching." "Men feel more powerful and desirable in her company, because she deliberately sets up that illusion. She may have a specific purpose in bewitching her man, but she can turn on the charm whenever she wants, even if she is not interested in anything particular." Under virtues: "Assertive-The SEDUCTRESS has learned that to be on the offensive is to her advantage. .... She does not care about being in charge as long as she is in control of her own destiny." "Strong-This woman is a survivor. The SEDUCTRESS does whatever is necessary to get what she needs. Enduring whatever she has to, she makes full use of her powerful attractions and mental acuity. When smoke clears, she is still standing." Under flaw: "Cynical-The SEDUCTRESS is jaded. Scornful of others, she trusts only her own judgment. She is suspicious of everybody, especially men. In her experience, everyone is in it for themselves." "The SEDUCTRESS: + is independent and smart + is able to size up people quickly and accurately + is cool and calculating + is very, very savvy" Susan Beth (susanbeth33(a)mindspring.com)

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H&H: Servalan
by Susan Beth 23 May '01

23 May '01

NOTE: all quotes are from "The Complete Writer's Guide to Heroes and Heroines." I'm leaving a lot out - most of which applies, some of which doesn't. If you want the latter, well, buy the book. It's interesting. ;-) -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Servalan is The Boss. (What, you don't think Servalan is a heroine? She certainly is in * her* version of her life.) "The BOSS takes charge of her circumstances and makes things happen before most people get off the couch. She is a strong, tough woman, who gets her way no matter what the obstacles. She remains unconcerned when she ruffles feathers and steps on toes. Her goals and priorities are far more important than hurt feelings. She is outspoken, resourceful and persuasive." "Winning is everything to the BOSS. To achieve her ends, she can be calculating. She will shade the truth in order to gain her objective and she is not above manipulating circumstances to make things go her way. She sees nothing wrong with this. Whatever helps her get across the finish line is all in a good day's work." "She will mow people down on her way to her goal and beware to those who stand against her. When confronted, she can be ruthless." Under virtues: "Confident-This is a woman who always knows where she is going. She comes up with a plan, organizes what needs to be done and makes it happen. The BOSS rarely feels any twinges of doubt, so she does not waste a lot of time analyzing her position. She knows she is right, and that is the end of that." "Dynamic-The BOSS is the kind of woman who walks into a room and commands attention. Because of her self-assurance, she sparks emotions ranging from admiration to jealousy." "Competitive-This woman is so self-assured, she is positive she will always win. Anyone who challenges that position is in for a battle. The BOSS utilizes all her resources and talents to triumph, and she never stops until her opponents are defeated." Under flaws: "Blunt-The BOSS does not mince words." "Arrogant-She is always right-just ask her. The BOSS finds it hard to acknowledge that others also have ideas worth exploring. Her haughty stare and overbearing manner turn a lot of people off. But that does not matter. Life is too short to worry about what other people think." Servalan falls into the Trailblazer sub-type: "At some point in her past, she developed a burning desire to achieve and to become the best. She worked her way up the ladder of success, and, in her struggle to succeed, developed a strong confidence in herself and her abilities." "She has no time for failures. She made it, everyone else should stop whining and do the same." Among the suggested occupations: mayor, queen, president. Susan Beth (susanbeth33(a)mindspring.com)

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Re: [B7L] Re: sadness
by J MacQueen 23 May '01

23 May '01

>From: Kathryn Andersen <kat(a)foobox.net> >Well, well, well... >I said I'd check out the place in a month or so, and what do I find? The time has come, the Walrus said, to ask Calle just how laissez-faire he's feeling at the moment. Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: sadness
by JEB31538＠cs.com 23 May '01

23 May '01

Emily, I agree with almost everything you said. I keep promising myself not to get involved or even read about the current problem on Lysator, but being on digest mode I still get suckered into reading a few things now and then. And after reading your post, I decided that I was being cowardly by keeping quiet. I don't like myself for that. I just want to say something and then go back into lurker mode. I am appalled at what is happening on Lysator. It makes me sick that one or more troublemakers can virtually ruin the list for two hundred or more people. It's not fair. Lysator isn't fun to read these days--it's absolutely painful. The hatred that some posts exhibit is intolerable. And name calling by anyone shouldn't be allowed. Joyce Bowen

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Re: sadness
by Kathryn Andersen 23 May '01

23 May '01

Well, well, well... I said I'd check out the place in a month or so, and what do I find? Jenny Kaye wrote: >Emily "I don't know what punctuation or a spell checker is" Darby wrote: > >I know this is very rambling but there are people who i am not sure > >if they are on or off lists now but people like > >Susan Beth, SLASHER PROGRAMMER > >Sarah Thompson, UNKNOWN > >Annie and Leah, SLASHER BASTARDS > >Judith Proctor, SLASHER > >Ellie, UNKNOWN > >Harriet, MAD SLASHER > >Kathryn Anderson, DRIVEN OUT BY MAD SLASHER BASTARDS > >Stever Rogerson, A MAD SLASHER BASTARD > >Neil A TREACHEROUS BACKSTABBING "STANDARD BY SIX" PILLOCK Who *is* this Jenny Kaye person? She's obviously mislaid her Prozac. I've read a few more of her posts, and they read like something from alt.flame! I find it terribly ironic that she says I was driven out by mad slasher bastards, because it is she herself who is driving me away now. And for the record, as I said at the time, it was *not* the slash debate per se which drove me away, but the constant squabbling about *everything*. The Lyst obviously is still deep in the grips of collective insanity. Guess I'll have to check the place out in another month or two. This has been the longest February in the history of the universe! Anyone want to volunteer to take over the Lyst Culture Guide? Someone who can put a copy of it on a web-page would be good. It would be better maintained by someone who actually has their finger on the pulse, and obviously at the moment I don't. Email me privately, I'm not going to be checking the Lyst. Oh, and thanks, Emily, for saying nice things about me. (-8 Kathryn Andersen -- _--_|\ Kathryn Andersen <kat(a)foobox.net> / \ \_.--.*/ <http://www.foobox.net> v

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