Blakes7

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5511 discussions

Re: death penalty
by Helen Krummenacker 15 May '01

15 May '01

Wow. Anna Simpson, thank you for that very long list of death penalty references. Given the number of them, it's amazing that so many of us had trouble remembering such specifics. I suppose it comes down to 'seeing is believing'-- excecutions are discussed, but never applied to any characters we are actually introduced to.

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Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Tavia 15 May '01

15 May '01

Jenny wrote: >Suicide is painless :-). No it isn't. Neither is it a good subject for jokes. Tavia

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Slave
by M 15 May '01

15 May '01

Wouldn't it have been interesting if Orac gave Slave lessons in behavious. You know - Avon: Set a cause Slave: Why? Avon: I beg your pardon Slave: Look I've been doing this all day, I'm going to do something else Avon walks off spluttering, mumbling to himself something about computers and taking them apart. M. ps - sorry I tend to watch The Way Back and Space Fall together, I meant Space Fall for Gan. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Neil Faulkner wrote: >From: Jenny Kaye <jennycat55(a)hotmail.com> > > > If all IMO's were valid, then life would have no meaning. > >Who says it does? Suicide is painless :-). Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Iain Coleman wrote: > > > Less intensively-planned? Don't you believe it. > > > >Umm... actually, I do believe it. Well stop :-) > >It's not a criticism, though. In fact, one of the things that draws me to > >B7 is that -- due to time/budget constraints -- it often comes closer to > >improvisation than to carefully-considered drama. I don't think it does. This is the source of > >much of the show's character and energy, and is why I find it more > >interesting than, say, 'Babylon 5'. The reason why B7 is more interesting than B5 is because it's much better. B5 does all the thinking for you. B7 lets the audience think:-) > > > > >2) The nature of performed text. Even if we manage an entirely > > > > >unproblematic text, what the audience has access to is the > >_performed_ > > > > >text. All performance of a text is an act of textual interpretation > > > > >(Hornby, 'Text into Performance'). > > > > > > To a degree. There are limits. If Darrow one day turned up and said, "I > >want to play the scene where I kill Pella in the style of an Indian bus > > > conductor." He would be told politely to "sod off". Why? Because it > >would > > > not fit with the rest of the episode, or the series for that matter. > > > > > > >I don't know. It might have been an improvement. It would certainly have > >added a bit of colour to the 'Was Avon Mad?' debate. Take it from me it would have been a disaster. I've seen Darrow's "Indian bus conductor", it's awful:-) > > > That's true. Shakespeare was a genius. It can be interpreted many ways > > > because it is meant to be. But any interpretation will have to fit with > >the > > > rest of the play, and it will have to be a "truthful" interpretation. If > >I > > > were to say that in the above text extract the character is talking > >about a > > > banana, you would quite rightly say, "What the bloody hell is she > >talking > > > about?" Well, that's what's happening to B7. > > > > > > >As it happens, I'll be rehearsing 'Macbeth' tomorrow in a house which > >generally has a ready supply of bananas. If I get a chance, I'll try doing > >that soliloquy as though it was about a banana. I suspect it might work > >better than you imagine. Oh, it'll work. But you'll very probably have to take the scene out of context. Also I dare you to do it on stage in front of an audience, or even suggest this as a serious possibility to the rest of the cast:-) and the best > > > > >interpretations have an 'aha!' quality that comes from pulling > > > > >previously disconnected elements together into a coherent whole. > > > > > > That's true. But what if it is not a case of disconnected elements, but > >an > > > overlooked pattern? > > > > > > >I think we're using different words to mean the same thing. Are we? Surely there is a difference between someone thinking up an explanation to explain a genuine mistake in production and someone putting elements together to expose a conscious, or sometimes unconscious, subtext put in by the author. > > > Iago is an immensely fascinating character. But if I told you that in my > > > fanon, Iago was a tree, you'd say I was mad. You have to understand a > >text > > > before you can send it up, or comment on it, or lampoon it. Most people > >on > > > this Lyst know nothing about B7 at all. Oh, they can quote the lines and > > > remember the episode titles. But actually understand it? I see very > >little > > > proof of that. > > > > > > >Oh dear, a rational email has now descended into name calling. A pity. It's a statement of fact. A statement of fact cannot be insolent:-) > > > > >I think you are quite radically misunderstanding my point. > > > > > > You think so? > > > >Yup. I guess you could always provide your summary of what you thought my > >point was, if you were interested in demonstrating that you had in fact > >understood it all along. Don't have to, you give a potted summary yourself, "It was shit acting". > > > > >It was shit acting, simple as that. Oh dear, a rational email has now descended into name calling. A pity. > > > It has everything to do with that time slot. The emotional realism is > >toned > > > down, because if it were played for real it would frighten its audience > > > half to death. > > > >If it had been played with the reality that Gareth brings to the last > >scene of 'Blake', that Michael Sheard brings to his death scene in > >'Pyramids of Mars', or that Peter Davison brings to his whole four > >tormented episodes of 'Caves of Androzani', it would have been great. Yes, but after the episode "Blake" there was an enormous public backlash that went on for months. Pyramids of Mars upset the "clean up TV campaigners" and "Caves of Andrazani" lead to Season 22 which was criticised for its violence and ended with the entire show being suspended for 18 months. When it returned it had been neutered. > > Darrow is a fairly mannered actor anyway. He plays the scene > > > in a very stylised and mannered way. Both of them do. But if the > >director > > > didn't want them to do that, she wouldn't have let it through. You do > >say > > > that emotional realism is not an unusual thing in B7 so why is this > >scene an > > > exception? Why wasn't Darrow getting direction? > > > > > > >First, a small point: while emotional realism is not unusual in B7, it is > >strongly correlated with particular performers. It would be. And sometimes Darrow doesn't give a hundred percent. But when he wants to Darrow can be excellent. > >To answer your main point: I don't know for sure, not having been on the > >studio floor for that day's shooting. It's easy to come up with > >possibilities: perhaps it was filmed last thing at night, perhaps the > >director was having to spend all her time getting the lighting right and > >couldn't spend much time on the actors... one could go on and on. For what > >it's worth, though, I think prevailing cultural attitudes at the BBC had a > >lot to do with it. Thank you. > > > Another example. Look at Darrow's studio fight with Bayban. Not very > >good, > > > is it? Now look at Darrow's fight with the Sarrans on that beach. Much > > > better. You know why? They had more time and a stuntman was involved. > >Don't > > > slag an actor off just because he's doing what he's been told to do. > > > >Is it all right with you if I criticise the actors' performance of a scene > >when I've seen it done vastly better by two totally miscast, entirely > >unprepared actors with no theatrical training? No. They were trained by you, and you are quite obviously a very bright individual who has a clear grasp of the subject. If that were not the case you would not have even attempted to pull something off like that. Unless you were stupid of course. Which you most certainly are not. You're probably a pretty good actor as well :-) Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Cuddly wuddly Sally Manton wrote: >Alison wrote: > ><But here you seem to be saying 'this is definitely the truth about Gan's > >character' - and that seems to me to be a meaningless statement. Where is > >truth held? What does 'truth' mean when we are talking about a work of > >fiction?> > > > >Yes, yes, a hundred thousand times yes!!! No, no, a billion times no!!! > >I do rather like Gan (though he'd be a fair way down on my list of > >favourites). I like most of them. The thing is this isn't the Battle of > >the > >Bulge or a treatise on well, anything, Wrong again, Manton! it's a TV show which we all enjoy > >for > >our own reasons, That's true. and even if those reasons are simply "I like the > >characters > >this way, thank you", That's true. > >that's a perfectly valid POV. To a degree. > > > >It really *is* okay if Steve R thinks Gan is a homicidal maniac Well, he'd be right. Gan is a homicidal maniac. and I think > >he's just the only ordinary man in sight pushed into an extraordinary > >environment Then you'd be wrong, then wouldn't you? - or if someone like Judith Seaman thinks that GP Blake really > >did intend to sell Avon out (an argument I can't even begin to comprehend, > >but so what?), She'd be wrong as well. as long as it's remembered that I *don't* have to agree if I > >don't think it's warranted. Good. Progess at last. A statement must be justified. If I say something that cannot be justified, then you have the right to attack that statement and show where I have gone wrong. If I think you are right then I will ajust that statement. But what we are implicity accepting here is that there is an actual "truth". That B7 isn't just a collection of random scenes and random words that can be justifiably assembled any way you see fit. If that was the case then B7 would be a programme unique in the history of televison. What people are doing in Lysator is saying, "Oh, I don't understand that bit, it must be bad writing. I can do whatever I want with the programme." This quite frankly moronic arrogance has now spread to include individual episodes. "IMO Avon killed Blake because he mistook him for Travis", like hell did he. Listening to people give their own very > >different versions can be lots of fun It can also be extremly boring, especially when they start running about like chickens with their heads cut off if someone says something that contradicts their own personal fanons. "How dare you say that about Avon. I'm leaving the lyst. Blub, blub." > > if that's kept in mind; it was last > >year and before that and can be again. If all IMO's were valid, then life would have no meaning. Sometimes I think I've accidently walked into an episode of The Prisoner. "In some place, at some time, all of you watched a television series called Blake's 7. And had knowledge that was invaluable in protecting you from an enemy. You are here to have that knowledge stifled, or reduced to an IMO. Unlike me, many of you have accepted the situation of your imprisonment and will die here like rotting cabbages. The rest of you have gone over to the side of our keepers. Which is which? How many of each? Who is standing beside you now? I intend to discover who are the prisoners and who are the warders." Or, if you prefer: "This farce, this twenty-first century Bastille that pretends to be a pocket democracy. Look at you. Brainwashed imbeciles. Can you laugh? Can you cry? Can you think? Is this how they tried to break you till they got what they were after? In your heads must still be the remnants of a brain. In your hearts must still be the desire to be a human being again." In the last episode Number 6 met number 1. It was he all along. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Spacefall
by Tavia 15 May '01

15 May '01

Jenny asked: >What do you want? General themes or a line by line analysis. >If you want the latter I'll have to send an email containing the >entire script for Space Fall. I'll can do that if you like, but it'll be >a big email. Is it going to piss everyone else off? Large e-mails don't bother me, but I might well be in the minority. Why don't we go for the themic version for now, and save the blow-by-blow account for points of particular interest or contention? Tavia

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Re: [B7L] Re: Limiters in general
by Sally Manton 15 May '01

15 May '01

Mistral said: <There is at least one piece of evidence in B7 that Gan's limiter may similarly function on intent, or more accurately, on emotion; Blake says in 'Breakdown': "The limiter is supposed to cut in when stress drives him to the point where he might kill."> Which also indicates that the use of the thing is rather (pun not intended but unavoidable) limited. If it works on stress levels - i e people who kill under stress or intense emotion - anyone who kills disapssionately (like Blake, for instance) would have no trouble circumventing it :-) <grin> Travis, on the other hand ... if he had one, might the thing mistake his surge of emotion (albeit triumphal joy) on finally getting to Blake as some form of stress and stop him? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: Space Fall (Was:[B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses)
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Tavia wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > > >And when someone reviews Space Fall I'll show > > >you an instance of that happening. > > > >Why don't you go ahead and review Space Fall, then, for general Lyst > >delectation? > > Okay. What do you want? General themes or a line by line analysis. If you want the latter I'll have to send an email containing the entire script for Space Fall. I'll can do that if you like, but it'll be a big email. Is it going to piss everyone else off? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Steve Kilbane wrote > >Jenny wrote: > > > > > Good. Progess at last. A statement must be justified. > > > >Well, actually, we had *that* particular argument a few months back, and > >it got rather unpleasant. :-) Yes. Ever wondered why? > > > If I say something > > > that cannot be justified, then you have the right to attack that > >statement > > > and show where I have gone wrong. If I think you are right then I will > >ajust > > > that statement. > > > >Therein lies much of the argument here. You've got to be persuaded before > >you change your point of view. That's true. If you disagree about the evidence, you're > >unlikely to be convinced. Not at all. You bring consistent evidence to support a conclusion, then I will consider it very carefully. As for evidence... > > > But what we are implicitly accepting here is that there is an > > > actual "truth". > > > >You might. I don't, You do with Shakespeare. for the reasons stated in an earlier post on > >dramatic productions. Elements of interpretation and interpolation > >become necessary, but they should be recognised as such. They also have to have a bearing on the text. > > > It can also be extremely boring, especially when they start running about > > > like chickens with their heads cut off if someone says something that > > > contradicts their own personal fanons. "How dare you say that about > >Avon. > > > I'm leaving the lyst. Blub, blub." > > > >Don't recall that many people have left because of this kind of thing. > >It seems more to be because of how people said it; comments ceased to > >be about the series, and became about posters. Go back and look at it again. The entire fight was over interpretation. Some people just don't like having their fanons challenged. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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