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5511 discussions

Space Fall (Was:[B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses)
by Tavia 15 May '01

15 May '01

Jenny wrote: >And when someone reviews Space Fall I'll show >you an instance of that happening. Why don't you go ahead and review Space Fall, then, for general Lyst delectation? Tavia

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Steve Kilbane wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > > > No, he probably is right. But as I have stated somewhere else, perhaps > >the > > > Limiter was working (though badly) at that point and scrambled signals > > > *were* feeding into his brain. But then, when Gan wakes up with no > >headache, > > > and then starts strangling Cally, this means that the limiter has > > > temporarily stopped working altogether. Whatever it was doing before. > > > >And as I've stated elsewhere, this is not guaranteed. But it can't be ruled out either. You don't know what > >it's doing; I think I've got a good idea of what the authors intended should be going on. you only know that at some point in the past, it started to > >malfunction. From then on, to the point where an expert in the field > >declares > >that it's fixed, all bets are off. An expert who declares Gan a psychopath. > >They're all possible, as are your possibilities of inferring Gan's history, > >but some are more likely than others. That's true. All you *can* say, reliably, is that > >you can't trust what's going on in there, because there's an unknown factor > >that *might* be influencing things in an unpredictable manner. That's absolutely right. But only right in the sense in which it relates to that particular episode. When evidence from all the episodes is put together, it starts point very strongly in the "Gan was a psychopathic killer of women," direction. See also my post to Sally, on Nation's "Of Mice and Men" comparison. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Sentencing
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Tavia wrote: > > >In 'Shadow', Avon twice refers to the mandatory > > >death sentence for possession of Shadow > > > >Thanks, Anna, for all the convincing examples that execution was used under > >civilian law in the Federation. Yes, it was an excellent email. Also in Games Servalan states that "fraud and theft" are capital offences. Though admittedly that is series 4 and the political situation had changed vastly by that point. My position now is that there is no "official" death penalty in the Federation for murder. > >The point about military law being different from civilian law is an > >interesting one. Quite apart from feeling that people who sign up in > >military roles should not necessarily lose their human rights, the > >pragmatic reason for opposing inhumane punishments under military law is > >the opportunity it gives for repression in the hands of potential > >dictators: take power, declare a state of emergency, impose military law > >and execute anyone who opposes you seems to be a fairly standard series of > >events. Smart stuff. > >It's fairly clear that Federation military and civil codes are different > >from Servalan's contempt for politicians of the civil administration. > >However I have wondered (wild speculation ahead) if the Domes on Earth in > >TWB were operating under some sort of a 'state of emergency' situation. No evidence I'm afraid. > >This might allow for the indiscriminate heavy drugging of civilians that we > >observed, without implying that this was necessarily the normal situation. Yes. but Blake doesn't seem to know that they are all drugged. And when he is told he doesn't really think it's important. RAVELLA: Try some. It's natural water. The stuff we get has been recycled a thousand times, and it's dosed with suppressants. BLAKE: Improves the flavour if nothing else. RAVELLA: Doesn't it bother you that you spend your life in a state of drug induced tranquillity? BLAKE: Why should the Administration try to drug us? RAVELLA: To keep control. They've been stepping up the suppressants because the number of dissidents is growing. They see what's happening and they want to stop it. BLAKE: (INCREDULOUS) Stop what? The Federation doesn't have to declare any 'state of emergency.' The people have enslaved themselves. They just don't care. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Limiters in general
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Steve Kilbane wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > > > I'm not making this up you know. This is no self deluding "IMO" > >bullshit.. > > > The pattern's there. Everything fits. > > > >Even assuming that that is the case, It is the case. > >that doesn't mean you're right. Yes it does. > >It means you have a hypothetical model which fits the facts you've > >observed. Yes, Dr Havant. Other models that do not contradict the same evidence are > >equally valid. But there are no others that do this and fit all the "facts." Standard scientific approach, diluted somewhat > >by individual interpretations of what is a "fact", in a dramatic > >presentation. :-/ Who do you think writes these stories? Aliens? No, human beings. Therefore the stories will, to a great extent, reflect human society. This conversation with you reminds me greatly of that scene in TWB with Dr Havant. HAVANT: You are obviously suffering from a severe emotional disturbance, we must try to unravel this fantasy. BLAKE: It is not a fantasy. HAVANT: Of course it isn't. BLAKE: Do you believe me? HAVANT: To you it isn't a fantasy. BLAKE: Get out! Leave me alone. HAVANT: Reality is a dangerous concept. Each one of us interprets it in a slightly different way. Every sense impression is filtered by the brain and altered. Sometimes just a little. Sometimes completely to fit our individual model of what the world is about. If that model should be challenged... BLAKE: I am not insane! HAVANT: No. You must put that thought completely out of your mind. You had a shock. BLAKE: Yes. HAVANT: We must work together to uncover what the shock was. I'm going to prescribe a mild sedative. BLAKE: No drugs. HAVANT: A mild sedative to help you to sleep. BLAKE: No drugs. HAVANT: All right, no drugs. **Now try not to think anymore.** Don't worry. We'll get it sorted out. They'll get it sorted out alright. In the next scene Dr Havant is saying 'let's kill him. He knows too much.' > >Note: anyone offering Occam's razor as a tie-breaker also has to > >offer a mutually agreeable definition of "simplest". Simplicity is always easy to recognise. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Steve Kilbane wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > > > There will only be one correct reading. The reading the author > > > intends. > > > >True, as far as the script goes (ignoring some literary schools of > >thought for now). But B7 isn't just the writer's vision. That's true. The actors > >and director get some say too[*], and can consequently change the > >meaning - intentionally or otherwise - of the original script. That's true. And when someone reviews Space Fall I'll show you an instance of that happening. That > >makes "correct" something that can be difficult to pin down. Not at all. B7 was production line TV not a film. In a lot of films things are changed all the time. Why do you think Live and Let Die is so full of holes? But not in TV. You compare an original script with the version you see on TV and the changes will be minimal. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Jenny Kaye 15 May '01

15 May '01

Iain Coleman wrote: > > > > > > > > Alison Page wrote: > > > > > > > > > Where is > > > > >truth held? > > > > > > In the text. > > > > > > What does 'truth' mean when we are talking about a work of > > > > >fiction? > > > > > > In the text. > > > >This seems terribly naive. (c.f. 'The UNIT Dating Problem' in Dr Who.) Bollocks to the unit dating problem. B7 series one was written by and scriptedited by the same two people. The UNIT dating problem came about because Super Fan Ian Levine, who was acting as unofficial historian at the time for Dr Who, didn't know his arse from his elbow. You're the guy who pointed out that "the death of Anna" scene in ROD could have been done a lot more realistically, aren't you? You're a smart guy, but you've missed something. The reason it was done that way, was because the story was going out before the nine o'clock watershed. If you are going to have a story which ends with a man brutally gunning down his ex- girlfriend in that timeslot, then you are going to have to tone it down somewhat, or risk Mary Whitehouse blocking the switchboards again. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Isn't it Slave's turn for the spotlight ... or something?
by Sally Manton 15 May '01

15 May '01

After I suggested: <Now, anyone want to talk about Slave's definite resemblance to one Uriah Heep?> Stephen D wrote: <Oh heck, does this mean that you have some ingenious theory that Slave was actually conspiring to take over the base and marry Soolin ?> <gurgle> 'twould indeed have to be ingenious to see Soolin as Agnes, true. I have to admit, however, that due to the amount of Dickens I'd absorbed *before* the first time I saw Series 4, I was half-expecting the wretched crawler to turn on them all *somehow*, some time. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] the limits of parody
by Steve Kilbane 15 May '01

15 May '01

Jenny wrote: > Good. Progess at last. A statement must be justified. Well, actually, we had *that* particular argument a few months back, and it got rather unpleasant. :-) > If I say something > that cannot be justified, then you have the right to attack that statement > and show where I have gone wrong. If I think you are right then I will ajust > that statement. Therein lies much of the argument here. You've got to be persuaded before you change your point of view. If you disagree about the evidence, you're unlikely to be convinced. As for evidence... > But what we are implicity accepting here is that there is an > actual "truth". You might. I don't, for the reasons stated in an earlier post on dramatic productions. Elements of interpretation and interpolation become necessary, but they should be recognised as such. > It can also be extremly boring, especially when they start running about > like chickens with their heads cut off if someone says something that > contradicts their own personal fanons. "How dare you say that about Avon. > I'm leaving the lyst. Blub, blub." Don't recall that many people have left because of this kind of thing. It seems more to be because of how people said it; comments ceased to be about the series, and became about posters. steve

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Re: [B7L] Re:limiters in general
by Steve Kilbane 15 May '01

15 May '01

Helen wrote: > Trial and error. Spike didn't know he wouldn't get the migraine > attacking a demon until he did, didn't know he could spar effectively > until they tried, and even used the 'chip test' to find out if Tara was > demonic or not. He gave her a bloody nose and got a migraine, which > meant she was free of demon taint. Which means that the chip's makers were up to something dubious, since a "normal" chip couldn't tell whether Tara - who looked human - was demon, before Spike himself knew. But Buffy's a universe where magic works, and the chip's makers had already produced something which was at least part magical (Adam), so that's permitted. It's not permitted with Gan (dragging this back on track), so for Gan, the inputs have to come entirely from within his own head. Actually, one thing that might also survive examination - and others who know the episodes better would be able to tell me - is that Gan's chip might not be intended to operate much by itself at all. It might be designed to operate by remote control, as part of a deliberate conditioning process, and the kicks-in-at-high-levels bit is just a very basic default to back that up if the prisoner escapes, etc. steve

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Re: [B7L] Sentencing
by Tavia 15 May '01

15 May '01

>In 'Shadow', Avon twice refers to the mandatory >death sentence for possession of Shadow Thanks, Anna, for all the convincing examples that execution was used under civilian law in the Federation. The point about military law being different from civilian law is an interesting one. Quite apart from feeling that people who sign up in military roles should not necessarily lose their human rights, the pragmatic reason for opposing inhumane punishments under military law is the opportunity it gives for repression in the hands of potential dictators: take power, declare a state of emergency, impose military law and execute anyone who opposes you seems to be a fairly standard series of events. It's fairly clear that Federation military and civil codes are different from Servalan's contempt for politicians of the civil administration. However I have wondered (wild speculation ahead) if the Domes on Earth in TWB were operating under some sort of a 'state of emergency' situation. This might allow for the indiscriminate heavy drugging of civilians that we observed, without implying that this was necessarily the normal situation. Tavia

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