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5511 discussions

Re:limiters in general
by Helen Krummenacker 14 May '01

14 May '01

> Spike is able to spar with Buffy, > > >because he has no intent to harm her, and therefore the chip doesn't > > >kick in. > > I'm not on Sky, so I could be wrong about this, but do you think it could > have something to do with the context of the fight? > Spike actually *tells* Buffy he can throw punches, etc at her while they spar because he doesn't have the intention to do harm. > Also, are we ever > actually told by the people who put the chip in exactly how it works. > Nope. > Or is > Spike (and so the audience) only going on trial and error? > Trial and error. Spike didn't know he wouldn't get the migraine attacking a demon until he did, didn't know he could spar effectively until they tried, and even used the 'chip test' to find out if Tara was demonic or not. He gave her a bloody nose and got a migraine, which meant she was free of demon taint. > >

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Re: Blakes7 digest, Vol 1 #422 - 14 msgs
by Helen Krummenacker 14 May '01

14 May '01

Okay, the problem with me being quoted on something another person said: I realize the problem is at my end. The new Netscape software I have doesn't give a text representation that I am quoting someone else; this is what's leading to the confusion. Just to clear the matter, I wasn't the one who originally brought up the children having their memories modified to frame Blake. OTOH, this was correctly attributed to me: Helen wrote about the Federation administration: >They fear political crimes so much they >would rather covertly slaughter large groups than try to brainwash >them.This from a society that appears to have no official >death penalty (I may be wrong). Travis was sentenced to death-- I did think of that, but military law tends to be harsher than civilian, and I decided not to go into that. Since Tavia says the wording of the sentence suggested that civilians might be executed for crimes as well, I shall concede on the 'no official death penalty' point-- I was expressing my lack of memory. Interesting the examples Tavia brought up were Blake and Travis-- both of them brought to trial for political reasons, but under the excuse of true crimes.

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Re: [B7L] Re: sentencing
by Tavia 14 May '01

14 May '01

Jenny wrote: >Military law is different to civilian law. Indeed. However, I was referring to the fact that, under currently accepted definitions, administrations which use the death penalty under military jurisdiction would count as retaining the death penalty in their legal system. (Check out Amnesty International material if you're interested.) Tavia

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by M 14 May '01

14 May '01

I thought the reason Kayn simply describes Gan as a psychopath and the others in such a way is leading to the revelation that he has called the Federation and his devotion to them. So kind of showing his bigotry before you find he is for the state. As for Gan, although I see him as a level headed man esp. in Way back and although not a genius, a normal guy, that limiter does make me wonder. Here's an idea, maybe he didn't just kill the guard, maybe he went on a rampage and killed loads of guards. His anger and rage were such they needed some of that drug from Season 4 for him, but as it hadn't been created, they gave him the limiter. To slow the adrenaline. M. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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Re: [B7L] iains episode reviews: TWB
by M 14 May '01

14 May '01

In Way Back when Varon goes to the records clerk, I always saw it this way. The way they have to bribe him to get the info. I kind of saw this as something regularly done. Maybe just for something as simple as getting the equivalent of a passport back abit a quicker. So its probably common and kind of ignored by officials, whereas the guy realises this isnt a normal inquiry. Realises too that if he's found out and implicated, he'll be brought up on serious charges. The Federation may turn there backs, but they probably keep a bit of evidence, that way they can always convict some-one. So he thinks, if he contacts the bosses, he doesnt have to say they bribed him, he could always say they had the passes - maybe they stole them, he thought they were real, only realised after they werent - he's sorry, but they were pros. Blah, blah, blah. Good loyal Federation citizen, get promoted (although he was probably sent away or 'disappeared' as he knew too much). M. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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Re: [B7L] Sentencing
by M 14 May '01

14 May '01

> >The really interesting thing, as someone brought up on list before, is > >Nova-- he's a pretty fresh-faced kid to be getting life himself. > Maybe he's a rebel or political prisoner - they can kill the ones outside, but maybe speaking against the state can be twisted into 'treason'. Although what always puzzled me is when that guy in Way Back puts his hands up and says to remain peaceful as they arnt braking the law and want their rights. As he seems to have been a rebel for a while, knowing Blake 'before' and all, does this mean this has worked in the past?. Did the federation used to let public demos, and only in the recent history started killing enmass? - I say this because of Blake's group being killed. M. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/

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Re: [B7L] Gan and Killing
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date wrote: > >--- Jenny Kaye wrote: > > > > > > > > >That would have been Terry Nation and Chris > > > Boucher. > > > > > > > >Forgive me. I didn't realise they actually had > > > said as much. > > > > > > Perhaps you should watch the series again? > > > > >How would that help? Do they make Hitchcockesque > >appearances in Deathwatch, explaining that Gan was > >really Jack the Ripper ? Yes. They appear from time to dressed in rubber Gan costumes:-) Incidentally your argument, > >which is a good one Thank you. > >if somewhat over elaborate, The theory is simple. The elaboration is just me covering every angle. would > >be improved hugely if you refrained from suggesting > >that people who disagree with you are guilty of bad > >faith or not paying attention. Why? They are. The whole point about > >debate is you need two sides. New experience for Lysator IMO. > >It would be helpful if you could cite interviews where > >either of the two suggested that Gan was not quite as > >wholesome as he seemed. There aren't any. I'm arguing from text. I am not doubting your > >veracity, I would just like to know. Again there aren't any. And if we all go through the series together you'll find out why. > > > > > >And in all 18 episodes never gives her name, or > > > refers to it again. > > > > > > > > > >Using lack of evidence as evidence in itself is > > > not usually a good idea. > > > > > > It's not lack of evidence, it's negative evidence, > > > there's a difference. > > > We're talking a character-defining moment here. And > > > it's very interesting > > > that we had just seen very similar events happening > > > on Cygnus Alpha (Gan > > > connects with a woman whose name he doesn't know, > > > >How do we know this ? Gan and the others spend a > >considerable period of time on Cygnus Alpha. We know > >that Kara is attracted to Gan and that she has gone to > >the trouble of finding out his name. Agreed. But how do we know that she has gone to this trouble? Because the scriptwriter has put a scene in the script where she calls out his name. Might she not > >have exchanged a few words with him ? She "might" have done anything. They "might" have had a sex session while suspended upside-down from a chandelier. She "might" be a killer penguin in disguise. Or introduced > >herself ? She introduced herself by kissing him. > >It's not as if she's playing hard to get. One chaste kiss doesn't make a torrid sexual affair. > >The fact that she takes a spear for him suggests the > >relationship has gone further than the kiss (I don't > >necessarily mean physically). She shouts a warning cry. It was just unfortunate that the spear carried on and killed her instead. She didn't throw herself in front of it to protect Gan or anything. > > > > >To use the only other example we have of the > > > crew's past love lives...how > > > > >often does Avon speak about Anna other than in > > > the episode we actually > > > see > > > > >her? > > > > > > Countdown, Children of Auron. Haven't been paying > > > attention have you:-)? > > > >Au contraire, Leia has been paying attention. Avon > >speaks about Anna in those episodes when it is > >necessary to the plot. That's what I mean. In Countdown he cannot avoid > >the subject, That's right, it is a major plot point. in CoA the crew are on route to earth and > >in RoD Avon goes after Anna's killer. Why are they going there? They could be going anywhere. It doesn't have to be that reason. It is because the story is foreshadowing RoD. Otherwise the > >subject doesn't ever come up. B7 isn't real life. Something will in the most part only be mentioned if it has a reason to be mentioned. Not even when he is > >sharing a moment of intimacy with Cally in > >Sarcophagus. That's right. Blake doesn't refer to his family after > >Space Fall, That's right. Avon doesn't refer to his brother after > >Space Fall, That's right. Jenna doesn't refer to her mother after > >Space Fall, That's right. Cally doesn't refer to the events on > >Saurian Major after Time Squad, You haven't been paying attention have you. She mentions Saurian Major in CoA. > >Tarrant refers to his brother's death once in Sand, Character point. It would have been unusual if he hadn't. Cally doesn't refer to > >the death of her sister after CoA. That's right. No-one mentions > >Jenna after Powerplay until Blake tells Tarrant about > >her death. There is a good reason for that. If you keep banging on about a character that isn't going to return, people start to miss her and say things like, "I wish Jenna was back in this programme. It's not the same without her." Gan's non reference to 'his woman' after > >Time Squad is the norm, not the exception. That's the double game for you. Want to go through the capsule scene in Time Squad now? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: moloch/limiters
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date wrote: >--- Jenny Kaye wrote: > > > > > If the > > > author wanted to put that > > > over then you may have had something like: > > > > > > KAYNE: This man's got a limiter implant. > > > > > > RENOR: Really? So what's he doing here? > > > > > > KAYNE: Good question. It's one thing to accept that > > > this is an experimental > > > craft on a proving flight, but quite another to > > > believe it's a test bed for > > > limiter implants. These people aren't Federation! > > > It's Blake and his rabble. > > > > > > RENOR: Are you sure? > > > > > > KAYNE: Of course I'm sure. Remember that story about > > > one of the limiter test > > > specimens escaping? > > > > > > RENOR: You're saying this is the one who got away? > > > > > > KAYNE: To right, you big bottomed bastard! > > > > > > RENOR: (CONFUSED) What? > > > > > > KAYNE: Are you a good witch or a bad witch? > > > > > > RENOR: (MORE CONFUSED) Eh? Are you alright > > > Professor? > > > > > > KAYNE: (SWAYING FOR A SECOND) Sorry about that. > > > Dropped out of character for > > > a moment there. > > > > >Or possibly Terry Nation was trying to avoid putting > >in too much exposition. Ever wondered why? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: sentencing
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Tavia wrote: > >Jenny wrote: > > >Military law is different to civilian law. > > > >Indeed. However, I was referring to the fact that, under currently accepted > >definitions, administrations which use the death penalty under military > >jurisdiction would count as retaining the death penalty in their legal > >system. (Check out Amnesty International material if you're interested.) No you weren't. You were trying to suggest that because the military execute prisoners and because Samor makes a reference to "common criminals" it could mean that the Civilian courts execute prisoners as well. Wrong. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Gan in Breakdown
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Stephen Date: > >--- Jenny Kaye wrote: > > > > > So if he > > > can't do it himself, > > > perhaps he can get others to do it for him. That's > > > why he lets the Guardians > > > terrorise Jenna in Time Squad. She goes to the > > > capsule and calls Gan's name, > > > but he doesn't answer. The next minute we see Gan's > > > left hand extending up. > > > He's awake. Gan is trying to cheat the limiter. He > > > is standing by and > > > allowing the Guardian to do the job for him. That > > > way he can vicariously get > > > his jollies. > > > >By being beaten up and possibly killed by some very > >nasty aliens. He isn't beaten up. They don't go anywhere near him. Remind me, is Gan supposed to be a > >homicidal maniac or a masochist ? He's a homicidal sadist. > > > In Breakdown the limiter malfunctions and cuts out. > > > But before it > > > malfunctions it gives him pain. Then Jenna comes > > > onto the deck. Oh, dear. > > > Gan always attacks women when they are on their own. > > > That's why whenever he > > > is alone, or alone in the presence of a woman, Gan > > > gets a headache. It is > > > conditioning him to find such an environment > > > uncomfortable. > > > >Why do the Federation want to condition Gan not to > >want to be alone ? Because that's the environment in which he kills. See also my email to Mistral. > > > When Gan is > > > strangling Cally the limiter cuts in again. The > > > device is faulty. It is > > > repaired in Breakdown, but the headaches don't stop > > > after this episode. He > > > has them again in Orac. There will usually be a > > > secondary reason BTW, but > > > although the reasons for that headache changes, the > > > context will always be > > > the same. Gan is alone. Gan is alone with a woman. > > > > >In Orac, Gan is suffering from radiation sickness. > >This is the reason, the primary reason, he takes a > >pill. One of the side effects of radiation sickness is > >you feel very, very ill indeed. That's the double game for you. Are you going to reprint the conversation in Time Squad between Gan and Jenna outside the capsule now? Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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