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5511 discussions

Gan and Killing
by Leia Fee 13 May '01

13 May '01

I said... >>I'm not quite sure where the idea that Gan got the limiter because he was >>a danger to woman came from. the Jeeny said... >That would have been Terry Nation and Chris Boucher. Forgive me. I didn't realise they actually had said as much. I was under the impression that it was just a theory you (and others) had. Jenny said... >He also appears to kill someone with a spear in Cygnus Alpha. Accepted. But I'm not sure what more that proves other than the limiter is not 100% reliable. >>b) he goes for Cally while his limiter is on the fritz >And Jenna earlier on. He only attacks Blake when he tries to stop him. All right. >And in all 18 episodes never gives her name, or refers to it again. Using lack of evidence as evidence in itself is not usually a good idea. None of the others talk about their past with the Federation much either. To use the only other example we have of the crew's past love lives...how often does Avon speak about Anna other than in the episode we actually see her? > And it seems a little extreme that he kills one guard and for that he's sent to >Cygnus Alpha with a limiter implant. A life sentence for theft is a little heavy too but the Federation aren't exactly strong on prisoner rights from what we see of their justice system. >If Gan has been fitted with a limiter there is a reason for it. Indeed. But the evidence doesn't point for certain at that reason being a violent hatred of women. Jenny wrote... >A monk killed Kara who showed affection to Gan. That's where Gan got >the story from. Or the situation mirrored his past and he was so enraged by it happening again that *thats* why he was able to overide the limiter and kill the guy. Just pointing out possible alternate interpretations here. >No, but we are talking about Gan's cover story here. In TWB Blake states >"I'm innocent, of what I was charged with anyway". Vila replies, "We have >something in common then.We are all victims of a miscarriage of justice." >"It's true!" Protests Blake, "Of course it is!" says Jenna. They don't >believe him, because they know that many guilty people, even after >conviction, will protest their innocence. They also know that many will lie >about what they are convicted of. TWB was written and script-edited by the >same two people who wrote and script-edited all of the first season. Er, are you saying that since Jenna did not initially believe Blake was innocent that Gan must therefore be guilty? Sorry, I don;t quite grasp the point you're trying to make. > When he is strangling Cally it is a deliberate act. He is >smiling and he's enjoying it. What kind of limiter malfunction would do >that? If the limiter is meant to prevent a particular behaviour then >presumably that's the behaviour we'll see when it malfunctions. If it had stopped working completley then that would be true. We know it is still doing *something*, Avon says as much. It is still activel but sending scrambled signals. The brain is remarkably complex and I wouldn't presume to speculate on what messing with it might do to persons personality and behaviour. >This is not the illogical actions of a man who has been driven to >violence by pain caused by a malfunctioning limiter. These are deliberate >actions. They have a pattern. Yes they are calculated, violent, whatever. We assume from the fact he has the limiter he is unstable and violent. I personally would not think killing someone in revenge is the act of an amiable friendly chap. I'm not actually arguing that point. What I'm disagreeing with is the idea that his violence is specifically targeted at women. > Yes it could have, but it wasn't. The writer has >set it up so that it is Cally and Jenna who are attacked. I hesitate to say it, loving the show as I do...but it is pretty typical for the girlies to get into trouble and need rescuing...even in B7. I don't read much into it. >The word "my" is the possessive. I talk about 'my partner' too. Doesn't mean I think I own him or am going to top him or anyone else if I lose him. Again I think you're reading too much into a simple phrase. >No, the entire theory is bullet proof. Doesn't automatically make it right. There is just as much evidence for a number of views. Leia

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Gan and Killing
by Leia Fee 13 May '01

13 May '01

>It (the idea that Gan's limiter is to dtop him hurting women - Leia) is one of the >semi-regular floating pieces of speculation that gets kicked >around in the archives every so often Ah one of *those* ;-) Maybe I'll shut up about it before we all need limiters ourselves then <grin> Leia

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Re: [B7L] Re: sympathy ploy?
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

"Sally Manton" wrote > > > >Helen suggested of Gan's headaches: > > > >Was thinking about this and wondered if anyone else agrees that - as long > >as the limiters's properly fixed - Gan would in fact be by far the easiest of > >Our Heroes to sail the galaxy with in reality? > >Keeping your temper and being calmly reasonable when everyone around you is > >being as annoying as hell may not be as exciting as Avon's acidic quips and > >the A-B tempest, but it would be far easier to take for long periods at > >close quarters ... Until that is the stress of having to put up with you calling him Sweetums Gandidyams finally blows his limiter and he pulls your head off :-) Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Gan and Killing
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Steve Kilbane wrote: > > smiling and he's enjoying it. What kind of limiter malfunction would do > > that? > >An logic inversion. Instead of repressing an impulse and generating pain, >it could be reinforcing the impulse and causing pleasure. This sort of >thing is common in digital systems (such as overflowing a numerical value >from one end of the numerical range back to the opposite end of the range) >or in analogue systems (where feedback loops cause waveforms to thrash all >over the place, rather than settling down on a nice, predictable signal). > >I'm not saying this is what's happening; I've giving a reason why it could >be a plausible result of malfunction. True and a very interesting and intelligent view (thanks!) but as I said earlier there's always an alternative explanation present-- the double game. It does explain Avon's take on it though, since he's a computer person too. > > If the limiter is meant to prevent a particular behaviour then > > presumably that's the behaviour we'll see when it malfunctions. > >Alas, by no means the case. If it's plugged into his brain, and it's >broken, >then frankly, anything could be going on. If it's just dead metal, and >being >inert, then yes, you could imagine that Gan would be in the same state as >he'd be without the limiter (albeit very slightly heavier...). But if it's >generating bad control signals, then (a) it could be randomly inhibiting or >otherwise modifying behaviour, or (b) it could be completely screwing up >his >brain chemistry. In which case, it's unfair to infer Gan's original >character >from his actions while it malfunctions. Not unfair, but a possibility. There are many possibilities given in the episode as to why this is happening; this is one. Jenny. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Harriet Bazley (Deceased) wrote: > >Given that the purpose of the limiter is to prevent the implantee from > >killing, No, it isn't. Gan kills in Cygnus Alpha. and that it apparently functions by inducing some kind of > >mental override when it comes to the actual deadly impulse, No. it doesn't. Gan kills in Cygnus Alpha. And he gets into combat, even deadly combat, situations without having any kind of mental override. it always > >seemed natural to me that when it malfunctioned it was those precise > >impulses previously tampered with that were being affected. In other > >words, that a device intended to stop a man from being able to bring > >himself to kill at all, even in self-defence, instead made him *want* to > >kill. That is farcical. Anyway, the limiter doesn't stop him killing. Gan kills in Cygnus Alpha. And what about the I-was-enjoying-that line in Deliverance? > >Jenny is correct in saying that Gan is not merely lashing out in pain, > >though I'd guess from his reactions that he *is* probably suffering > >pain as well; He doesn't look particularly pained when strangling Cally. In fact he looks as if he is enjoying himself! > >he is clearly homicidal during the limiter malfunction. Could be right there. > >Harriet Bazley == I love Pylene-50. I drink it all the time. It helps me not to think about anything nasty == > > >I agree with what you say; No you don't. see above. > > but I will condemn to the death the manner > >in which you choose to say it. Groovy! Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] iains episode reviews: TWB
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Iain Walker wrote > >Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Jenny. Thank you, for yours. I agree with most of what you > >said, but I have a few replies: > > > > > > Another indication of imperfect drugging is the public address > >announcement: "President to answer > > > > questions on population control". So clearly there are people > >questioning authority > > > > and public announcements about it > > > > > > Or it's just a pretence that you have a say. > > > > >But why bother with the pretence if you have total control (including > >population drugging)? To give that feeling of well being. In TWB they are not zonked out zombies. It's safe to assume that the Administration needs them to be productive in some way. So the drugs would have to be fairly light, and so would also need a propaganda support as well, to provide the pretence that they have a say in something. All fascists do it. Hitler used to say "There are two possibilities...Either we will do this, which will lead to disaster and ruin, or we do this other thing which will lead to prosperity and the thousand year Reich." The truth of the matter is that he was actually giving them no choice at all. > > > > - I am sure the writers want us to believe some global nuclear or > >biological war. > > > > > > No. There were never any atomic wars. The reference to "pre-atomic" in > >ROD is a reference to the atomic age not an atomic war. The "Galaxy wide > >atomic wars" crap only appeared in the pre-publicity hand outs for season 4. It > >is never referenced in the series itself. > >Well, I don't know anything about B7 publicity blurbs, Perhaps you got it second-hand. but at the time the > >series was written/broadcast, the threat of nuclear war was a real > >possibility, It still is. which would require bunkers to survive and afterwards the > >planet surface would be too contaminated to live on - so you live in a dome. But the surface isn't contaminated, is it? Blake even drinks from a small stream with no qualms. The series itself does not directly tell us why they lived in domes, but my > >supposition was based on the context in which it was broadcast. Yes, but your supposition has to be based on evidence that appears on the series. In all 52 episodes of B7 there is no mention of an atomic war taking place on earth. It just isn't there. I agree it's unusual. Nation particularly seemed quite obsessed with the idea of nuclear conflict. The Daleks after all are the result of a neutron bomb and the Federation uniforms resemble the sort of thing you would expect troopers involved in biological warfare to wear. But there is still no mention of any atomic war taking place on earth in B7. They are in domes because that makes it easier to contaminate the air and water with drugs. Anyway, there's other late-70s concerns than nuclear war which might have been referenced there. Pollution for instance. But whatever it is, it isn't seen, or referred to, in the series. > > > > if someone is easy to bribe > > > > you have just established that they can't be trusted - it then becomes > > > > obvious that he will stab you in the back and turn you in to the > > > > authorities. > > > > > > No it isn't. You don't report people who give you money; it makes you > >look bad. > > > > >1. The technician doesn't have to turn them in for the bribe, but for the > >enquiries they are making. Yes, but he took the bribe and showed them the classified material they wanted to see, which makes him look bad too. > >2. You can report people who bribe you. For example, give a police officer > >$50 to not give you a speeding ticket. He takes the money, gives you the > >ticket and then says you tried to bribe him. Simple. You are in trouble > >and he isn't. Yes but he loses £50. As you said yourself, the chap in TWB appears to be just some small minded functionary. Why would he want to get muddled up with security? If he was genuine his attitude would be "not my problem mate". But he *does* report them. This suggests to me that he was a security plant himself. Another reading of course, could be that Varon's line about blowing the top of the whole administration frightened him. And so he thought he would be a good citizen and turn them in. In the end you pay your money and you take your choice. > >Like some others, one of my favourite things about B7 is the insight into > >the federation. They aren't bad just because they wear black hats :-), the > >things they do to people in this episode (and other episodes) are > >completely > >appalling. Unfortunately, later episodes/series tend to focus on one > >blackhatted individual (you know who I mean ;-)) It does, but it's saying something very interesting there as well. When (and if) we get to those episodes you'll see what I mean :-) Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] IMO
by Sally Manton 13 May '01

13 May '01

Jacqui asked: <What does PWP mean - I haven't been able to 'logically decypher it.'> 'Plot? What Plot?' Usually a short piece, adult in nature, with a heavy amphasis on the character interaction and very light on conventional plotline. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: sympathy ploy?
by Sally Manton 13 May '01

13 May '01

Helen suggested of Gan's headaches: <One way to try to get attention.> <grin> yes, the poor man doesn't have much chance, does he? The other three men do tend to keep the limelight all to themselves in their various ways ... Was thinking about this and wondered if anyone else agrees that - as long as the limiters's properly fixed - Gan would in fact be by far the easiest of Our Heroes to sail the galaxy with in reality? Not at all exciting, true, but ... well, look at Horizon. Everyone's tired, stressed and being decidedly difficult, but while Blake goes into bulldozer mode and Cally goes all Mystical alien, Vila whines and Jenna grouches, and My Darling works even more on his pain-in-the-neck bit, Gan goes off alone with Orac for a lesson, and will even take the blame for the difficulty of the lesson (I agree with Cally - Orac would make a rotten teacher) and only calls the flight deck with an offer for help. Keeping your temper and being calmly reasonable when everyone around you is being as annoying as hell may not be as exciting as Avon's acidic quips and the A-B tempest, but it would be far easier to take for long periods at close quarters ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Gan and Killing
by Steve Kilbane 12 May '01

12 May '01

By and large, I haven't been following the debate, so I can't comment on the validity of any character issues. However, this one is a systems and engineering issue. I can cope with that. :-) Jenny wrote: > 1/ He fights with the others on the flight deck, but that is after he has > attacked Jenna and after they have intervened. When he is strangling Cally > it is a deliberate act. He is > smiling and he's enjoying it. What kind of limiter malfunction would do > that? An logic inversion. Instead of repressing an impulse and generating pain, it could be reinforcing the impulse and causing pleasure. This sort of thing is common in digital systems (such as overflowing a numerical value from one end of the numerical range back to the opposite end of the range) or in analogue systems (where feedback loops cause waveforms to thrash all over the place, rather than settling down on a nice, predictable signal). I'm not saying this is what's happening; I've giving a reason why it could be a plausible result of malfunction. > If the limiter is meant to prevent a particular behaviour then > presumably that's the behaviour we'll see when it malfunctions. Alas, by no means the case. If it's plugged into his brain, and it's broken, then frankly, anything could be going on. If it's just dead metal, and being inert, then yes, you could imagine that Gan would be in the same state as he'd be without the limiter (albeit very slightly heavier...). But if it's generating bad control signals, then (a) it could be randomly inhibiting or otherwise modifying behaviour, or (b) it could be completely screwing up his brain chemistry. In which case, it's unfair to infer Gan's original character from his actions while it malfunctions. steve

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Re: [B7L] IMO
by Jenny Kaye 12 May '01

12 May '01

Helen Krummenacker: > >Means "In My Opinion". It indicates the user realises they are > >expressing an opion, and not an indisputatble fact. I can not be used to > >stifle a debate, because acknowleging one's own views are an opinion > >shows an understanding that other opinions are possible. Not the way it's used on this Lyst. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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