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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Gan and Killing
by Jenny Kaye 12 May '01

12 May '01

Leia Fee wrote: > >Been following the discussion on Gan, limiters, killing and the phrase 'my > >woman' and felt the need to chip in. > > > >I'm not quite sure where the idea that Gan got the limiter because he was a > >danger to woman came from. That would have been Terry Nation and Chris Boucher. I recall that in his words he was given it > >because he killed a Federation guard after said guard killed 'his woman'. That's what Gan says, but then he says something else when lying outside the capsule, and if Stephen Date writes back to me, reprinting the relevant dialogue, I'll go through it. (I could do this myself, but I'm too lazy) > >The evidence for him having a desire to murder women seems to come from the > >evidence that... > > > >a) he killed the guard so is capable of killing - hence the limiter. He also appears to kill someone with a spear in Cygnus Alpha. > >b) he goes for Cally while his limiter is on the fritz And Jenna earlier on. He only attacks Blake when he tries to stop him. > >c) he uses the phrase 'my woman' when talking about the woman the guard > >killed. And in all 18 episodes never gives her name, or refers to it again. > >I'm not convinced these add up to him being a killer of women for the > >following reasons. > > > >a) He took revenge on the guy who killed the woman, which seems to imply > >he cared about her enough to want revenge 1/ We only have Gan's word for this. And it seems a little extreme that he kills one guard and for that he's sent to Cygnus Alpha with a limiter implant. Lets look at it another way. Let's pretend Vila is captured by the Federation in the middle of series three. Does it sound likely that he would be fitted with a limiter, because he has killed by that point. I don't think it does. If Gan has been fitted with a limiter there is a reason for it. 2/ In Cygnus Alpha Kara kisses Gan. She then later shouts a warning to him as a guard throws a spear. The spear kills Kara. A little later Gan is seen bearing down on a spear, the point of which is out of shot of the camera. This is known in the trade as foreshadowing. It is giving you clues for what is to come. What happens can be described as follows: A guard killed Gan's woman. A monk killed Kara who showed affection to Gan. That's where Gan got the story from. - no one seems bothered that Avon > >wanted to do the same to the guy who killed *his* > >girlfriend/partner/woman/significant other. No, but we are talking about Gan's cover story here. In TWB Blake states "I'm innocent, of what I was charged with anyway". Vila replies, "We have something in common then.We are all victims of a miscarriage of justice." "It's true!" Protests Blake, "Of course it is!" says Jenna. They don't believe him, because they know that many guilty people, even after conviction, will protest their innocence. They also know that many will lie about what they are convicted of. TWB was written and script-edited by the same two people who wrote and script-edited all of the first season. > >b) Cally was the one who happened to be looking after him when he came to > >and released him, it doesn't follow that he was after her particularly > >because she was female. He has a bash at several of the others too if I > >recall. 1/ He fights with the others on the flight deck, but that is after he has attacked Jenna and after they have intervened. When he is strangling Cally it is a deliberate act. He is smiling and he's enjoying it. What kind of limiter malfunction would do that? If the limiter is meant to prevent a particular behaviour then presumably that's the behaviour we'll see when it malfunctions. 2/ When he finds Avon he beats the shit out of him. He then, ignoring Avon's protests, attacks the computers. Gan has rationalised that computers mean something to Avon. He then comes at Avon, using the computer links as a club. This is not the illogical actions of a man who has been driven to violence by pain caused by a malfunctioning limiter. These are deliberate actions. They have a pattern. 3/ Cally is attacked when she is on her own in the medical unit. Jenna is attacked when she is on her own aboard the flight deck. The alternative explanation is that "yes but they just happened to be the ones present there when Gan went mad. It could have been Vila. It could have been anyone." Yes it could have, but it wasn't. The writer has set it up so that it is Cally and Jenna who are attacked. > >c) The interpretation of 'my woman' is as has been opbvious on the Lyst > >controversial at best and doesn't automatically imply possesiveness l The word "my" is the possessive. > >I could of course be wrong but there does seem to be rather a lot of adding > >up two and two to make five going on. No, the entire theory is bullet proof. And I should know. I fought against it for three weeks offlist. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: sympathy ploy?
by Jenny Kaye 12 May '01

12 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > There will usually be a secondary reason BTW, but > > > although the reasons for that headache changes, the context will always > >be > > > the same. Gan is alone. Gan is alone with a woman. > > > > >One way to try to get attention. One way to take your time killing a victim. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] We can't *all* be geniuses ...
by Jenny Kaye 12 May '01

12 May '01

M wrote Stephen Date (I'm a bit confused as to whose talking here, but I'll answer it anyway.) wrote: > >IMO - Gan is mentally altered because of the limiter malfunctioning. That is one of a number of explanations put forward in Breakdown. As I > >see it, Gan, although can't hurt another, Yes he can. He fights with people. Knocks them out. Causes them pain. Appears to kill someone in Cygnus Alpha. couldn't have been altered to be > >that good while still leaving him with thoughts against the Federation. He doesn't have thoughts against the Federation. That's a fallacy. He sticks with Blake because, "I have to, I want to stay alive and to do that I need people I can rely on. I can't be on my own." And where does it say that the security guard he killed was Federation. "Oh, that's bloody obvious! What other security guards would there be?" The security guards we see at Vaga's court perhaps? We have so little information on what actually happened with Gan, that he could just as easily have been making it up out of whole cloth based on the events of Cygnus Alpha. The monk that killed Kara becomes the guard that kills his "woman"; at no time in the script for Cygnus Alpha is Gan told Kara's name. We have a plausible story from Gan which resembles the events of Cygnus Alpha either by coincidence or design, but that's all we have. If > >they'd altered him that much why doesn't he sing the Federations praises. Because Gan is not a political enemy of the Federation. > >Further to this when I listened to The Mark of Kane - you know, well some > >of >you know, when Gan's described as a psychopath, I felt this was abhorrent > >to the character I think it fits exactly. I knew and at the end, a;though this is totally me reading > >into it, what the guy means by Gan being his friend, is that the other guy > >was lying about a good guy and so it doesn't matter he's dead (sorry cant > >remember the exact quotes, havnt listened to it in a while). I think Stevens and Tully were playing the double game as well. What you have in 'The Mark of Kane' and 'Blake', is the idea that Blake doesn't trust people anymore. He has lost his faith in human nature. The idea that Gan was the Catstrangler is another attack on Blake's faith. Blake had a man aboard his ship who was really a sadistic killer, and Blake never knew it. But he's also not entirely sure that it is true, and what this says about his new friend Tando. In 'Blake' he appears to have reached a decision. Blake shoots Tando down. "Oh, it was Tando you killed. -- He was worse than the people he hunted." Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: 'woman'
by Jenny Kaye 12 May '01

12 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > >Isn't it mysogynistic to claim the use of the word 'woman' indicates > >mysogyny? Using the word 'woman' isn't mysogynistic, it's the context and the characters who say it. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: Marriage and the Federation: summary
by Tavia 12 May '01

12 May '01

Canonically married: Hal Mellanby and Dayna's mother (Aftermath) Groff and wife on Xaranar (DotG): not sure whether they count as Federation? Sula and Chesku (RoD) All the other examples were either obvious lies (Avon/Chevron and Dayna in Powerplay) or clearly outside the Federation social structure (Nina and Gunn Sarr) Unknown: Maja and Varon (The Way Back) Vena and Muller (Headhunter): the reference is just to Muller's lady Maryatt (Deliverance/Orac): reference is to 'a woman and two children' and 'family' not 'wife' I think that was all? Thanks to Rita d'Orac who did a text grep.... Tavia

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Re: life and fiction (was McVeigh)
by Helen Krummenacker 12 May '01

12 May '01

I found myself wondering on similiar lines... Why do I find crimes of greed rather obnoxious in real life and wish Avon had gotten his millions of credits in his scam? I think it's because I focus on the 'so rich no one could touch us line'-- in my personal view, Avon was stealing to ensure his (and Anna's) safety from the Federation, rather than greed. How do other people react to Avon's attempt at embezzlement?

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Re: [B7L] Careers (was: Gan, marriage, et al)
by Marian de Haan 12 May '01

12 May '01

M asked: >If the B7 characters were in our reality, what jobs would they have? yes I know they were criminals, but saying they all had day jobs which were honest. < I can imagine Gan as a kind of paramedic - an ambulance man or something like that. Avon seems too much of an individualist to work comfortably under a boss. He'd probably be most comfortable when given difficult projects to work out on his own. I think he'd also be a success as an airplane-crash investigator or some similar profession. Vila would be in his element as an official visiting pubs to check that they don't use too small measurements or water down the wine. He'd insist on tasting the wine personally :-) Blake can only be a school teacher. The way he's laying down the law on Liberator - and gets his crew to obey him even when it's sheer folly - indicates a born teacher. A military career seems the most suitable for Tarrant. He comes over as someone who thrives under firm authority and needs clear lines of command. Jenna as free-lance pilot, hiring herself out for the more adventurous and dangerous jobs, is an obvious choice. I think she'd also make a decent investigative journalist - always asking "What's going on?" :-) Soolin would be a success as bodyguard. S1 Cally could be working for a sports school giving courses in Self-defence For Women. S2/3 Cally could be employed as a government complaints officer - being sympathetic to the complaining members of the public without ever trying to get their problems sorted out. This must be the influence of the episode "Animals": I keep seeing this mental picture of Dayna working in a zoo, tending to the more dangerous animals. Thanks, M. This is fun. Marian

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Re: Marriage and the Federation
by Tavia 12 May '01

12 May '01

The cycle time is getting very short here! We had this one not six weeks ago. As I recall when I read the transcripts, most of the obvious candidates turned out not to have been explicitly stated to be married. Perhaps someone with a brain operational could write a 7cyclopaedia entry ? Tavia

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Re: The Way Back
by Helen Krummenacker 12 May '01

12 May '01

First off Iain, I'd like to say I like your approach and commentary. Now for my response for one question > Blake asks Ravella why the administration would suppress us [with drugs]? > Is he blind. everyone we see looks drugged. Is part of the drugging (even > after 36 hours without drugs) stopping him from seeing this? > I would suggest that people see whatever they are used to seeing as 'normal'. When everyone is drugged and that's all you've seen, you would think that the undrugged people are possibly on dangerous stimulants; no one could normally be that unpredictable, jumpy, emotional and rapid in movement, could they? The gentle rhythms of daily life are normal, not these rebels. > Blake (and presumably others?) is being "looked after": constant observation > and following and faked tapes from his relatives (needing actors that look > just like his family). > Or the Federation has good computer graphics generators. Easier to do right than finding and coaching actors.

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Re: marriage and the Federation
by Helen Krummenacker 12 May '01

12 May '01

> M asked> The 'woman' thing, I was just wondering how many characters, are discribed > as being married? -real question, I cant think of any (are the two in Way > Back married?. > "Headhunter", the roboticist and his wife. "Rumours of Death", Counciller Cesku and Sula (Anna). I think the lawyer is married to the woman with him in The Way Back, but I'm not sure if I'm getting that from the show or the written summary (and I only watched it a couple of weeks ago!) In "Deliverance", the doctor's family will be sold into slavery for his 'desertion'-- I don't think they said 'wife and kids', but family. Marriage is specified rarely on the show. > I'm wondering if marriage is unusual or something higher grades do. > I thought perhaps so. Even in the examples above; scientist, lawyer, government official, and doctor-- the are in "professions", as we call those careers these days, which would suggest superior grade citizens.

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