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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Re: Limiters in general
by Jenny Kaye 14 May '01

14 May '01

Steve Rogerson wrote: >Jenny says about Spike: "Thirdly, after he gets the chip >in, there is no instance of him killing a human under any circumstance." > >Wrong. When Druscilla makes her brief return, she shows him that the chip's >power >is all in his mind and he can overcome it with willpower. He does just that >and >kills a human. Oh well, you people who have Sky, you know everything :-). Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: Blakes7 digest, Vol 1 #421 - 9 msgs
by Helen Krummenacker 13 May '01

13 May '01

Please be careful about attributing statements to me that I have not made-- if I discuss a matter with someone, and botoh sides are attributed to me, it is disrespectful of the other person's responses and also puts me in the position of being held accountable for someone else's words.

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Re: sentencing (was Gan)
by Helen Krummenacker 13 May '01

13 May '01

> > And it seems a little extreme that he kills one guard and for that he's > sent to >Cygnus Alpha with a limiter implant. > > A life sentence for theft is a little heavy too but the Federation aren't > exactly strong on prisoner rights from what we see of their justice system. > In California you could get a life sentence for theft if it's the third time you are caught and the dollar value is high enough. Vila was in and out of the system several times before he was made a lifer, or so I interpreted his comments on his past. The really interesting thing, as someone brought up on list before, is Nova-- he's a pretty fresh-faced kid to be getting life himself. > >

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iains episode reviews: TWB
by Iain Walker 13 May '01

13 May '01

Rather than a "what happened next" approach (that has been done very well by others), these are just my random thoughts that came up during each episode. My bias in these comments is that I like the ambiguity of the series - i.e. not everyone in the federation is EVIL and not every rebel is PERFECT. The things that grate are those that are totally out of character or just don't make any sense or require an explanation I feel was probably in a cut out scene. Feel free to correct my observations/interpretations/add sarcastic comments :-). And before anyone asks - I *did* watch the episode!!! 8-P The Way Back A tremendous first episode that sets the scene for the whole series. We get insight to how the federation works, Blakes background, indications that you can't trust anyone, noone is totally good or bad. Drug me. We learn that the way the federation ensures total control is that the food and water are treated with suppressants. This only works if they have developed drugs that allow people to remain productive whilst stopping them from questioning authority. The idea that the federation is comfortable with designer drugs like this reoccurs in many episodes - even post federation with commissioner Sleer. However, the federation is aware that the drugging is not perfect because they also have many surveillance cameras (in public places only?). And they have terrible elevator music in the hallways - this music alone is probably enough to drive some people insane and break the drug induced tranquility. Another indication of imperfect drugging is the public address announcement: "President to answer questions on population control". So clearly there are people questioning authority and public announcements about it - so even the fact that people question authority is not hidden. This implies that the administration needs some sort of popular support. Is it possible that there are elections to some positions within the administration? So Blake may be fighting a democracy (albeit a pretty dodgy one). Blake asks Ravella why the administration would suppress us [with drugs]? Is he blind. everyone we see looks drugged. Is part of the drugging (even after 36 hours without drugs) stopping him from seeing this? I live in a dome. People live in domes, but it is possible to live outside - they are not surrounded by wasteland, the air is safe to breathe and the water is safe to drink (as Blake and Ravella do later in this episode). It is illegal to leave the domes - presumably because then people would not be drugged. The doors to outside are also locked (so the drugging isn't perfect) and require special equipment to open them. I wonder what drove everyone into the domes to begin with - I am sure the writers want us to believe some global nuclear or biological war. Are there domes in which the food is grown - or does food come from outside? I don't think so - it would be too difficult to harvest and transport. Where does the water come from? They must do lots of recycling in the domes. The domes are many levels above (see the outside shots) and below the ground (they come up the ladders to exit). Get a job. Blake (and presumably others?) is being "looked after": constant observation and following and faked tapes from his relatives (needing actors that look just like his family). This must be a huge industry in the federation employing lots of people. You can't trust anyone anymore. Why is Tarrant following them? And why is he following them if there are surveillance cameras everywhere? This is another indication that the total control is not perfect - there must be parts of the domes not covered by the cameras so they need to be followed in person). When Blake meets Foster I like that in the background Dev Tarrant says hello to everyone - so we know he really is a member of the resistance - after all our worrying with him following Blake. And then he actually says ".I thought for a moment we had been infiltrated." Hahahaha! Dev also says "we met before" implying the "old" Blake. Does this mean he Foster were members of Blakes first resistance group and they escaped the massacre? It has been four years since all Blakes followers were "captured" according to Foster. But they were "..transported to outer worlds and executed on arrival.". Why transport them at all - why not just kill them? After all, a pro keeps it simple ;-). I suppose it might be easier to hide the crime on a remote planet with less people to bribe (or keep quiet). These people are as ruthless as the federation - they have prepared documents to implicate Blake in their activities. Why would this worry Blake? - the federation watch him all the time and know that he has not been in contact with the resistance. Conspiracy theories galore. Are Tarrant and Foster both double agents? Tarrant asks Foster "what do you think?", to which Foster replies "there's not much left of the man I knew". Foster sounds sincere so I don't think he is a double agent, but this might be evidence that Foster is being "run" by Tarrant because Tarrant doesn't care what Foster thinks really because he has arranged a massacre! I am even more confused by their wanting to trap Blake if he is a reformed character. When the troopers come in, a trooper looks at Blake in his hiding place and does nothing: have they all been briefed to let Blake live (but then the "mastermind" would have to do something to all the troopers so they don't blab about this. This kind of thing is always a problem with too complex conspiracy theories - you have to keep too many people silent!). Why are all the bodies left lying around? To provoke Blake? After all, they are waiting for him when he returns to the dome: the expect him to survive!, and get captured! And return to the dome!! He could just have run off into the countryside. Was he saved because he would have become a martyr? Then they try to frame Blake with the child molesting charges. This is baffling if they have caught him with the resistance. Is it the "avoiding matyrdom" problem - i.e. child molesting will put everyone off. But then why set him up with the resistance? What's going on??? Also, when the lawyer and his S.O. are killed - their bodies are left lying around outside the dome. Won't these bodies be found by the outsiders and incite them further? Interior decorating taste aside, Glynd is concerned that justice has to be seen to be done. When Blake meets Varon, Varon says "of course not" when Blake says the charges aren't true. How does he know, or was he just being cynical? At the trial, why did Tarrant come to gloat. Very unprofessional! The legal records technician is a charicature beaureaucrat - listening to music instead of working. Like all small minded people with a little power he is actually happy that they do not have the right security clearance. But he is easily bribed. Varon is very naïve - if someone is easy to bribe you have just established that they can't be trusted - it then becomes obvious that he will stab you in the back and turn you in to the authorities (or - as part of the conspiracy he was told to take a bribe.). Tel Varon knows about mental implants, but his S.O. doesn't. It's the 70's dammit. Flares + bubble perms - 'nuff said. Why do Glynds doors a the justice department have that annoying woosh (I know - its overdubbed to hide the clunking of plywood hitting plywood)? Its great that Glynds place has shag pile carpet - a sure sign of '70's decadence. I bet the B7 producers had shag pile in their homes! But we do get to meet the worlds most machiavellian grandmother!! New neighbourhood, new friends. Vila is the first one he meets. Vila knows Blake the name, but not Blake the face. This implies that people (even potential followers) don't know what Blake looks like, so why don't the federation simply eliminate him? They can have a "Fake Blake" and noone will know. (However, Jenna looks like she recognises Blake?) The federation has failed to "adjust" Vilas brain too - a kindred spirit for Blake. Vila knows Jenna and Jenna knows Vila. Have they worked together before? The way they talk it does not sound like they have just met. At first Jenna is very aggressive, she says to Blake: "Better get used to the idea that noone out there gives a damn about you.". Then she goes soft, reassuring Blake with "don't worry, they'll get it" when discussing the holding order. She also reassures him again on the ship. (She MUST fancy him - it is the ONLY explanation.) But then we see that the lawyer is dead and Blake has no hope - great ending. In any other program our hero would never be condemned in this way. It is clear that from now on the good guys will regularly lose! And get killed off too! Together with their friends and family. Next week: Space Fall - Iain Walker

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Eclectic 21
by Judith Proctor 13 May '01

13 May '01

I gather this came out as an empty message the first time. You probably know this already, but here it is again for good luck. Judith Eclectic 21 have announced a couple of new guests, these are Sylvia Anderson, co-creator of Stingray, Thunderbirds, UFO and Space 1999 to name but four and Andrew Sewell the producer of the forthcoming Blakes 7 movie. Their web site is www.eclectic21.co.uk They've got a good run of B7 (Gareth Thomas, Jacqueline Pearce and Frank Maher - stunt man and very interesting to hear) and UFO guests (Ed Bishop - Straker, Michael Billington - Foster) The con also has a strong interest in DC and Marvel comics and there looks to be an interesting alternative programme on a variety of topics - vampires, tarot, aromatherapy, the future of conventions in the Internet age, etc. (and they've talked me into running a filk session) For those missed Gareth's packed-out Shakespeare reading at Redemption, here's your chance to hear him at his best, reading from the words of the Bard. Judith (still off-list, but slowly gaining ground on the e-mail backlog) - -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '03 21-23 Feb 2003 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

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Re: McVeigh
by Ellynne G. 13 May '01

13 May '01

JMO, but can I compare this to John Brown and Lincoln? I think it would be useful since slavery is pretty uniformly condemned but that doesn't mean everyone who was against it was an angel in disguise. Now, I look at the 600,000 casualties of the U.S. Civil War and think it was a tragedy but a justified one. If that's what it took, then that's what it took (and, by the time Lincoln was in office, that was definitly what it took. I think the greater tragedy is that slavery couldn't be ended before things reached that point). OTOH, John Brown had a lot fewer casualties and was, IMO, a terrorist nutcase. What was the difference? John Brown was a man who could kill an underage kid with the phrase, "Nits make lice." That really was his attitude. The kid wasn't a threat to him and wasn't likely to become a threat to him - I doubt Brown knew or cared if the kid was even part of a slave owning family or just with the wrong crowd at the wrong time. Although there are good arguments about Star One, Blake otherwise didn't go charging into planets without what we would recognize as legitimate cause or without being asked. We see them raid military targets, attempt reasonably peaceful interaction with nonFederation worlds (rarely lasted, but they didn't start the fight), and get involved in military actions on planets like Albion (although, with a military presence of one, I'm not sure if that counts). On Horizon, I'd say they actually worked within the system (although it wasn't their idea). Brown, OTOH, made a habit of rescuing people who hadn't necessarily asked to be rescued and, then, he made insufficient efforts to help them afterwards. Not to disregard the evils of slavery but, if you're going to get rid of slave owners, leaving the slaves in slave owning territory with no clear way to escape to free territory (which they may not be keen on if they have relatives in the area or for other reasons [that fear of flying to evils we know not of and possibly Stockholm syndrome or learned helplessness]). At Harper's Ferry, he just expected the slaves to rise up. Instead, he wound up in a hostage situation where the hostages included slaves who seem to have been much more afraid of him than of their owners. So, civilian targets, targets that served no purpose in his claimed plans, an arrogance toward the people he intended to free nearly as great as those he claimed to free them from, no noticeable regard for the lives of others, and a tendency to feel it was OK to wipe out anyone who disagreed with him whether they were a threat or not. Although civilians suffered terribly in the war, it did concentrate on military targets. Targets were generally picked with at least arguable purpose. Furthermore, Lincoln may have been unwavering, but no one has sincerely questioned his humility or his 'malice towards none.' He was always quick to pardon (and I mean that in the presidential sense as well as others. Soldiers who had been condemned to die had a remarkable survival rate when relatives were able to bring the matter to Lincoln's attention in time). If I were to pick between the two, I would say Blake (though lacking the soulful, craggy face) was closer to Lincoln than to Brown. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Re: sentencing (was Gan)
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > > And it seems a little extreme that he kills one guard and for that > >he's sent to >Cygnus Alpha with a limiter implant. > > > > > > A life sentence for theft is a little heavy too but the Federation > >aren't exactly strong on prisoner rights from what we see of their justice > >system. What we see of their justice system relates to the hardcore criminals: the politicos, the 6-million-credit embezzlers, the murderers. Vila even says he's an habitual offender. "I've had my head adjusted by the best in the business. It just won't stay adjusted." > >The really interesting thing, as someone brought up on list before, is > >Nova-- he's a pretty fresh-faced kid to be getting life himself. Most successful criminals have fresh honest faces. That's what makes them successful criminals. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Limiters in general
by Jenny Kaye 13 May '01

13 May '01

Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > Jenny said... > > > >He also appears to kill someone with a spear in Cygnus Alpha. > > > > > > Accepted. Thank you. But I'm not sure what more that proves other than the limiter > >is not 100% reliable. Sorry, don't buy it. If you are a scriptwriter you don't put something in just for the hell of it. Also, you notice, it proves Gan lied. > >In Buffy, Spike realises he has to actually *think* about hurting > >someone to trigger his chip. There needs to be intention. Leaving aside the fact that Buffy is a totally different programme, I actually think that's wrong. Spike can kill demons with impunity, but if he even points a replica gun at a human as a joke the chip triggers. Secondly, if just *thinking* about killing someone is going to activate the chip, then Spike would be in constant pain all of the time. Thirdly, after he gets the chip in, there is no instance of him killing a human under any circumstance. . Gan's limiter might have a similar problem-- if the situation is so severe that he is > >acting on instinct rather than clear thought, it doesn't recognise the > >intent to kill? You mean like suddenly killing a guard that has killed his woman? Well, if that's what he was convicted of then giving him a limiter that totally fails to take that possiblity into account is a nonsense. Different nueral path, doesn't hit the block. Just a > >possibility. Not a very convincing one though. Also his killing of the monk in Cygnus Alpha is a deliberate act. Kara has been killed by a spear, Gan uses a spear (possibly the same spear) to kill the monk in return. When we see Gan killing the monk he isn't at all irrational, he even obeys Blake's orders to break off the attack and follows him and Vila out the door. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Engine room
by Steve Rogerson 13 May '01

13 May '01

In a story Paula and I are writing, we need to set a couple of scenes in the Liberator's engine room. However, we don't think it was ever called the engine room. Can anyone remember what if anything it was called. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption 03, 21-23 February 2003, Ashford, Kent Celebrating 25 years of Blake's 7 and 10 years of Babylon 5 http://www.smof.com/redemption

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Re: [B7L] Marriage and the federation
by Tavia 13 May '01

13 May '01

Sally wrote: >...the overriding impression I get is that real, open commitment >of whatever kind might in fact be less common than in our >own society. An interesting point, which seems borne out by the few examples of couples within the series. Especially interesting, perhaps, as there appear to be two lines of evidence that suggest that the Administration might wish to promote *higher* birth rates among Federation citizens: (1) Population depletion on Earth -- whatever the catastrophe that led to the Domes, one would imagine it entailed a substantial decrease in the Earth's population; (2) Large number of new worlds to colonise. So perhaps stable commitments reduce the birth rate? Tavia

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