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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Re: If you could change ...
by Marian de Haan 29 Apr '01

29 Apr '01

Mistral wrote: >3) Animals - Replace it with a Jarriere-centric episode. < Or cast Harry Jones in the role of Justin :-) Marian

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Re: [B7L] How do people watch B7?
by Sally Manton 29 Apr '01

29 Apr '01

Una wrote: <LOL! - yet even I would suggest that if you're going to watch 'Animals', then don't skip 'The Way Back'! Actually, I would like to propose that 'The Way Back' is a strong contender for one of Jenna's *and* Vila's best episodes - they may not be in them as much as in later ones, but the characterisation (which was softened up later) is terrific - Vila sly and fluid and just a *tad* disturbing (an interesting point is whether or not he's telling the truth *here* about his mind 'adjustments' or is saying it to unsettle Blake), Jenna cool and hard and confidently moving in on Blake as she does. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Captain Vila (part three)
by Sally Manton 29 Apr '01

29 Apr '01

As promised <veg> I mentioned above: <Vila - who for two years has let said put-downs slide by - decides this time to take Avon up on it ...> This is an interesting point, which I think sheds some light on the rather neglected Vila-Blake relationship. All IMHO, folks ... Vila is *not* an empty boaster, at least not in series 1-2. Yes, he has a high opinion of his own worth as a thief/lockpick ("There isn't a lock I can't open - if I'm scared enough.") but we have to be fair - if he thinks he can't do it, he says so (Spacefall and Bounty being cases in point, with the added punch that in Bounty he says he can't then, when pushed, finds out he *can*.) He is self-deprecating in his humour, unabashed about his dubious profession (TWB, Shadow etc) and apparently lowly social grading (Shadow), and quite happy to let Avon's slurs on his intelligence (Horizon) and Blake's impatience with his questions (Star One - "You don't have to explain it to me, I only came for the ride.") slide straight by. So why does he suddenly find it important to defend himself on the issue? Why does it matter *now*? My theory is that it has to do with Blake's disappearance (remember, in the very scene we're discussing, it's Vila who brings up the matter of checking out those rumours that Blake was seen here). During Blake's command, Vila was *secure* in his place on the Liberator. Blake could be brusque and impatient at times (and at least once - the end of Trial - both he and Avon were dowright unkind, though whether Vila picked up on it is a moot point). But Blake also had a clear purpose in life, fighting the Federation; Vila's skills were invaluable to that purpose, he knew it, and Blake made sure that Vila knew *he* knew it, by actual thanks and the off word of praise when Vila was in earshot (something no one else did). Whether or not Avon or anyone else thought he was a fifth-grade ignorant didn't matter so much, because he was of use, he had his place, Blake needed him. But now Blake's gone, and the Liberator's purpose is very much murkier, along with what use Vila is to the crew. So he [a] is naturally quite positive about the idea of getting Blake back, and [b] feeling rather less secure (possibly subconsciously) about his place, whether or not the others will find him reduundant ("one spare part up here", as Avon put it). It *does* appear to be tied up with Tarrant - a substitute Blake? - in his mind, but also shows a lack of faith in Avon's and Cally's view of him - hence, the defensiveness (this all foreshadows City, of course, where he brings up Blake's name again in the bullying scene with Tarrant, and shows that he has little faith that Avon and Cally *would* defend him against Tarrant). All speculation, of course, and no proof that what Vila said in Volcano is or isn't true, but maybe a clue as to why - after two years of cheerfully denigrating his background, and letting Avon do it - he suddenly speaks up. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Captain Vila (part two)
by Sally Manton 29 Apr '01

29 Apr '01

Now, the matter of Weapon, Coser and the Beta rank. Jenny wrote: <I think what we are actually seeing is the Beta Grade from the perspective of Coser, who is quite clearly vengeful, and not just a little bit mad.> Absolutely, but the episode makes it clear *to me* that he has grounds for seeing it that way. Firstly, the point that Travis and Servalan make, that his taking Security by surprise shows he "is brighter than his grade classification would suggest". Given what we see of Federation security, this does not speak highly of the grade classification in question *at all*. The clear implication is that Betas are not regarded (at least by people like Servalan and Travis) as incapable of original thought, which bolsters Coser's belief that his invention - his original work - could be stolen from him. (And given that our own Vila is perfectly capable of taking Security (SLD), Fearless Leader and everyone else in sight - including himself - by surprise, it's rather telling.) And then there's Blake who, in my biased opinion, is unusually egalitarian (his method is to treat everyone as social equals, while ordering them *all* about) but says quite bluntly "Coser's only a Beta class weapons technician, so he's not important enough to have caused all this fuss." i e, Betas are seen as rather lowly. Regarding your: <Yes, but until he had actually experienced such a thing, how could he know what it was all about?> He hasn't been an Alpha either, but he's got a fair grasp of what it means as far as Blake's concerned ('Shadow'). It wouldn't be that hard to work out where he would be most comfortable and could pursue his chosen profession (thief) most easily - he can be perceptive when he wants, and if it's to do with getting what *he* wants out of life, he will want. <Also, any prejudice from Alpha grades for Betas must be lightweight compared to the prejudice he would feel as a Delta.> Who said he'd be concerned about prejudice? Vila doesn't actually show much concern about what the others think about his ranking or him personally *until* this scene; he's perfectly happy to let them think what they like if it gets him what he wants (after all, he has a low opinion of most of them too). The reason he gives for *wanting* a Delta grade actually rings true in one respect - it has nothing to do with outside bias or prejudices or how others would treat him, but a solid, practical basis on what he thinks would make his life more or less unpleasant: going into the military being (I-his-O) anything but desirable for this. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Horizon , new issue
by Jenny Kaye 29 Apr '01

29 Apr '01

Emily writes: >I did skim though to see if anyone had commented on the recent > >new horizon magazine which for UK members i would guess arrived > >a few weeks ago, (well mine did anyway) and there didn't seem to > >have been any discussion at all, maybe a lot of lyst members are > >not members of horizon any more? I don't know. I didn't see any names I recognized from the Lyst in it. But then I'm not a member either-- I borrowed it from a friend who is. > >I have been in recent years been a staunch critic of Horizon and > >the people that run it and i do not wish to drag it all back up again > >but i was pleased to read that at long last the videos from > >Deliverance 1998 are now available, well the first one is , Well, actually they still haven't been duplicated yet, apparently. > >onto the subject of the mag, it seems pretty good, the usual > >excuses about why it is so late, but what is new there !!!, When was the last one out? It must have been a long time. This is the first one I've seen in years. > >there is some good articles There are some hilarious articles, but I don't think they are meant to be hilarious :-). > >I am interested to hear what other people have to say about it ? I thought it was well designed, but what I read was turgidly written. I did like the article about fans being interviewed by Sky and the BBC though. All credit to Rob Enry for writing about how he and Diane Gies humiliated themselves for television. I LOL when I read about how they were both duped into running around a garden flashing Liberator guns at each other. How squirmingly dreadful. Actually the whole mag seemed to be more about the activities of certain fans in the past year than about B7. Since none of the fans were anyone I knew, I found it pretty skippable. > >hopefully without starting another nasty horizon debate Another one? What was that about? Lateness? > >As i have said i don't agree with the horizon committees views on > >lots of things and i sometimes feel that things should be better > >from the 'official' club I thought Judith Proctor was the 'official' club. Have I missed something :-)? but hey i guess we are not all perfect :) and a> >lot of clubs do not always manage a newsletter at all, ( i speak > >from previous disappointing experience with other fandoms!) True. My friend's already cutting it up for the pictures. So things are not all bad I suppose. Jenny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Chris Boucher
by Sally Manton 29 Apr '01

29 Apr '01

Judith wrote: <for those who don't know, Chris was the script editor on Blake's 7 >and also wrote many of my favourite episodes such as Rumours of Death.> and Jenny Kaye: <Thanks for that Judith, though I think it's also best to add that for those who don't know, Blake's 7 was a British science fiction drama series that ran from 1978 to 1981. Some of you might have seen it, or even possess the odd episode on video.> ?!?! I'm sorry if I'm being thick, but I'm not sure I understand this comment? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Captain Vila (long)
by Sally Manton 29 Apr '01

29 Apr '01

Jenny Kaye wtote: <The scene is demonstrating that Vila is: 1/ Shallow 2/ A braggart 3/ An untrustworthy liar 4/ Self deluding 5/ Incapable of forward planning 6/ Stupid, in that he greatly underestimates the intelligence of the people he is talking to. Even though he has known these people for a very long time.> <veg> Let me guess, he's not your favourite character. Vila's background is as fluid as his mind is, of course. In 'Horizon', when Avon calls him "a fifth-grade ignorant", his answer is "I chose the wrong parents, didn't I?" - nothing about cheating one way or the other on the tests (interesting that he doesn't call Avon on that incorrect ranking either). In 'Shadow' he says to Cally that he grew up 'among the Delta service grades' and was in the Juvenile Detention Wards at a very young age ("since I was old enough to read the graffiti'); in 'Power' he mentions to Pella that he was "technical advisor for the escape" at the 'academy' of CF-1; in 'Stardrive' he says he was sent to a penal colony (possibly Cf-1) at age 14. In 'The Way Back' he says to Blake that he's had his head adjusted 'by some of the best in the business'. Of course, this interesting history would make perfectly good reasons for being deprived of the Dreaded Captaincy, without bringing in anything about the tests. In fact, he's disarmingly honest about the shadier part of his history (always assuming he's telling the truth about *them* :-). He's not in the slightest bit ashamed on his Delta rank - of all the crew, he's the most open and talkative *about* it - nor does he seem to think it makes him inferior to the others (he does sometimes feel that way, I think, but due to very different reasons). So empty 'bragging' about a higher rank seems pointless, even for him. So yes, there's a decent case to be argue that he was simply making it up as he went along. The problem is that one thing Vila says here is absolutely true. He is *not* stupid, but actually quite bright in his own way, as he clearly demonstrates in other episodes (sometimes pulling the possibly-Alphas' butts out of strife, when he absolutely *has* to). He's somewhat scatterbrained IMO, definitely *not* an intellectual, and as lazy mentally as physically, but he can be very quick and flexible (which is why he's Avon's second-favourite sparring partner, after all; *were* he stupid or slow, Avon wouldn't waste his breath). 'Weapon', which is the episode that gives us most information - little though that is - on the grading system, and the reason I have real problems slotting Vila into Delta-by-rank. Goodness, Coser is a *Beta*, and from the way Servalan and Travis - and even Blake - talk, you'd think that was only for the terminally slow and thick - "this man Coser is brighter than his grade classification would suggest". Also, the clear implication is that Beta grades are considered and treated as *very* inferior to Alphas runs all the way through the episode (actually, it's a pity that the writer made Coser a Beta, as the attitudes in this episode to this secondary rank make it that much harder to judge where the rest of the crew might be; they can't *all* be Alphas!!) Which begs the question of how someone as bright as Vila unquestionably *is* ended up in the service grades that are lower even than Coser. (It also indicates - rather strongly - that being a Beta grade is both restrictive and horrible; if someone like Vila found himself headed in that direction I can see him doing anything to avoid it. But then, as said above, his prison record should have taken care of that little detail). So to wrap it up: I still think he could have been exaggerating, rather than lying. I *do* believe that, given what we know about how the grades worked and were seen, Vila *is* too bright to have been ranked that lowly in a fair test. If there *was* testing - which both his statement in 'Volcano' and Travis's in 'Weapon' attest to - he would have done better than that. And he would hardly have stated that he *did* but his results if it was known to be impossible (not to Avon, who could call him on it quite easily, and didn't). So I have to judge it 'unlikely but unproven'. I don't, however, think his grading had anything to do with whether or not he could have been a Space Captain, since his history - and his incorrigible thievery - would have put paid to *that* idea even if it had been an option (one has to admit that Tarrant shows a healthy interest in creative acquisition as well. But presumably he kept it under wraps until he graduated <g>). Yes, he *could* have bought the Delta grade; no, it had nothing to do with being a Space Captain, nor was there any chance of him being an Alpha, he's not *that* bright; unquestionably, he was having a dig at Tarrant, who at this stage is quite likely irritating the living daylights out of him. JMO. <As Avon confirmed, "A pro keeps it simple."> Sorry, ma'am, but I'm still an amateur at 'Playing the Game' so I don't have to do what Avon says if it don't make sense to me ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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call for information
by Mac4781＠aol.com 29 Apr '01

29 Apr '01

I'm working on the information column for the upcoming issue of the Tarrant APA. If anyone has any information (conventions, zines, anything related to B7 or the performers) they'd like me to include, please send it to me off list. As usual, I've been tucking away information posts sent to the lyst and FC, but feel free to double check with me to make sure I have *your* information. Carol Mc

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Re: [B7L] Horizon , new issue
by Mac4781＠aol.com 29 Apr '01

29 Apr '01

Emily wrote: > I am interested to hear what other people have to say about it ? Mine just arrived today (in the USA), and it looks great: gorgeous layout, nice mix of text and photos, professional quality throughout. The only bits I've had time to read, so far, are the Vere Lorrimer tributes, which were lovely and touching. I appreciate all of the work that went into it. Carol Mc

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Horizon , new issue
by Emily Darby 29 Apr '01

29 Apr '01

Hi I am a somewhat infrequent poster nowadays , what with the pressure of work etc etc and i have to admit somewhat shamefully that i have skipped over a lot of the last few weeks postings but i gather there has been the usual acrimonious postings regarding slash and other issues which i am sure that no one else wishes to resurect . I did skim though to see if anyone had commented on the recent new horizon magazine which for UK members i would guess arrived a few weeks ago, (well mine did anyway) and there didn't seem to have been any discussion at all, maybe a lot of lyst members are not members of horizon any more ? I have been in recent years been a staunch critic of Horizon and the people that run it and i do not wish to drag it all back up again but i was pleased to read that at long last the videos from Deliverance 1998 are now available, well the first one is !, which is great news, it was a fantastic con and i look forward to recieving the first one and hoping that it will bring back good memories of the con for those of you that were unlucky enough not to have been there it was a good con, loads of good guests and great panels and loads of like minded fans !, one of the best cons that i have been to in recent years, i believe that the videos will be available to those people who did not pre order and the details are in the latest Horizon mag onto the subject of the mag, it seems pretty good, the usual exuses about why it is so late, but what is new there !!!, there is some good articles although i have to admit that i forgot to take it with me recently but i have dipped in and out I am interested to hear what other people have to say about it ? hopefully without starting another nasty horizon debate As i have said i don't agree with the horizon committees views on lots of things and i sometiems feel that things should be better from the 'official' club but hey i guess we are not all perfect :) and a lot of clubs do not always manage a newsletter at all, ( i speak from previous disapointing experiece with other fandoms!) anyway enough rambling Emily

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