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Re: [B7L] More thoughts on Mellanby
by Marian de Haan 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

Fiona replied to my: >>Considering that Orac is his only means of getting back to Liberator, Avon's priorities here don't strike me as out of character. He must be kicking himself for having let Orac out of his sight. :-)<< > >It's still a bit self-centred of him,< Well, to me Avon seems a very self-centred kind of person. :-) >and if he did like the fellow, it's a bit strange< Actually, I don't see much evidence for Avon liking Mellanby. The fact that Mellanby's a rebel - and a failed one at that - would speak against him, IMO. Avon's polite to him, but that is good politics in the circumstances. But even if he did like Mellanby, his reaction still wouldn't strike me as out of character. Avon's a practical man. Getting back to Liberator is his top one priority. He needs Orac for that, so the fact that Servalan has taken it is more important to him than the death of a man he has only known for a few hours. >>It's him leaving Orac for Servalan to grab in the first place that I find hard to credit.<< > >To be fair, she wouldn't have had a go at all if Mellanby (or Dayna?) hadn't left the gun lying around in the first place.< Still, one would expect someone with Avon's survival instinct to want to keep his only means for returning to Liberator with him at all times, especially when his enemy is around. All the more since Servalan has told him that she's after Orac. (This is what I meant by sloppy writing :-) ) >>I didn't interpret that as sarcasm but as a clumsy consolation attempt. :-)<< > >Perhaps not sarcastic, but still, it's an odd thing to say when someone you like dies. It's also a line that needs unpacking. If Mellanby had been fretting in exile, longing to get off Sarran, the line would have made a lot of sense: in death, Mellanby finally escapes his exile--and in that sense, his words might be a comfort to Dayna (although a consolation attempt is rather out of character for Avon--< Not if he sees it as the quickest way to get Dayna to help him find Servalan. > and Avon's never clumsy, he's always very precise).< Maybe clumsy is the wrong word, I meant that he seems not very good in the art of consoling. In Headhunter he leaves it to Soolin to tell Vena about Muller's death. The only thing he can think of to say to the grieving widow is: "Don't try to be stupid!" :-) Marian

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a student in dire need of help!!!!! (fwd)
by Judith Proctor 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

I know people have varying feelings about being the subject of research, but I've not run across a student analysing conventions as a culture before, so if anyone wants to lend her a hand, please drop her a line. It sounds rather interesting to me - conventions are a break from the mundane world, I love that atmosphere in which you can be who you want to be and dress as you like with nobody assuming anything other than that you love to dress up. Judith (still off list with the usual aches and pains - went to see an assessor for the Open University today who had several intelligent ideas for ideas to help with the typing pain. They do equipment grant for students with disabilities and she sounded quite optimistic. Fingers crossed.) > > dear Judith > > hi my names hannah and I'm at Staffordshire University, at > the moment I'm doing a module where I have to research a > chosen culture. I have chosen to look at the types of > people who attend sci-fi conventions and why they go. I > have been to two myself, Who's 7 in 96 and deliverance in > 98. > > I am finding it extremely hard to find people who have been > to conventions and also to find information on the web. > > Please could you put a note on the site asking anyone who > wants to, to get in contact with me by e-mail and just > write a short paragraph letting me know a few reasons why > they go, how often they go and what kind of person they are > i.e. age, proffesion so that I can get an idea of the type > of person they are. > > I would prefer any mail to be sent to : madge968(a)hotmail.com > > Thanks very much and your views or advice would be very > much appreciated, > > Hannah Keely.

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Blake Changes His Mind (was Re: [B7L] Re: Interpretation )
by Fiona Moore 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

>From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling(a)worldnet.att.net> >The trouble is that Blake seems to undergo a complete >character change between TWB and Space Fall-- True. >which I suppose might happen given the level of >trauma, but still should have gotten at least a minute >of screen time. Blake in TWB is a pawn completely >at the mercy of events--he doesn't go outside with the >deliberate intention of returning to subversive activity, >only to hear about his brother and sister (since Ravella >and Richie are blackmailing him, they may also have >fabricated the story that his family has been killed). >He spends the massacre hiding, which is a very natural >and believable human reaction but not very Blake-like; >his conduct in the rest of the series is nothing if not >pro-active. And he tells Ravella that he needs time to >think about what she's just said--something he very >conspicuously doesn't give Avon in Space Fall. I don't find the change of character at all surprising, myself. Between the two stories, Blake has been galvanised into action. At the beginning of TWB, he is a good citizen, and believes he always has been so; as you say he is completely at the mercy of the events which overtake him. Between the massacre and "Space Fall," however, his world is completely shattered. Not only has he just witnessed the massacre you mention and learned the truth about his family, past and mental conditioning at the Federation's hands, but he has been framed for child molestation, told that he is insane, given a show trial, had his lawyer killed before he could get an appeal, and packed off to Cygnus Alpha on a ship full of sadistic guards. Enough to rouse anyone to action, I think; militant fanatics are often made of much less. It's worth noting that in "Space Fall," it is the knowledge that his family are dead that gives Blake the strength to resist Zen's trap. If there had even lingered the slightest bit of doubt about the reasons for doing what he was doing, I think he'd have been every bit as trapped as Jenna and Avon. And the thing that kept Blake going was the things he had experienced on Earth, in the brief time between the massacre and his being put on the London. So yes, I agree that there is a change in character, but one that under the circumstances seems to ring true. Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Totally unchanged at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [B7L] Terry Nation as Writer (was Re: Perceptions)
by Fiona Moore 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

>From: "Una McCormack" <una(a)qresearch.org.uk> >'Cops in Space' is a fairly simple premise, I think <g> (and shorter than 'Robin >Hood in Space'!). Perhaps, thinking it over, it's not so much a question of a simple premise as a straightforward, or even archetypical, one. For instance, B7 is Robin Hood in Space, Star Trek is Wagon Train in Space, Lost in Space is The Swiss Family Robinson in Space-- but Star Cops is less easy to define. It's Cops in Space, but it's not Magnum PI in Space, or Inspector Morse in Space, or The Bill in Space. I think maybe some of Star Cops' viewer-alienating factor may be people who tune in expecting "Cops in Space" to be "The Bill in Space" and getting thrown. >The reason 'Star Cops' failed was that it was bunged out in a >death slot on BBC2, and that by 1987 we weren't watching TV drama series in the >same way anymore. 'Star Cops' would have sat quite happily at 8:10pm on BBC1 on >a Tuesday night in 1978. It has all the ingredients of those dramas: simple >premise, and a small set of characters whom you stick in various situations week >by week. Perhaps true, but there's a bit more to it I think in that it's still hard to get people to watch it today. When I lived in Canada, I remember the local public station (which usually gave anything British and 1970s pride of place on the viewing schedule) put it out at 11 PM and seemed rather embarrassed about showing it at all--I'm not sure they understood it. Similarly, I know a lot of fans who say that they find it hard to get into, and/or the characters hard to identify with, or, in one case, "it just leaves me cold," even after I've sat them down and forced them to watch it. >I agree that Boucher is at his best when he's writing within an established >format, and that Nation was above all a consummate professional who knew how to >get programmes commissioned. Definitely. But I also think they're both more than that... Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane The Incomparable Atuk in Space at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Terry Nation as Writer (was Re: Perceptions)
by Fiona Moore 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

>From: Tavia <tavia(a)btinternet.com> >Fiona, then Neil: > > Perhaps I've just been disillusioned by recent events on the lyst, but > > Neil-- *how* does fandom in and of itself strip reality down to its bare > > essentials and ask fundamental questions? > >Cock-up on my part. I actually meant fan*fic*. I got confused between > >the creative output and its source. Fanfic compares quite well to punk > >lyrics -the naivety and/or simplicity (as you prefer) of the texts is not > >necessarily echoed in the writers. And not all of the texts are either >naive > >or simple. > >Well, I for one am still confused. In my experience of fanfic -- limited I >know -- I'd say that there was a strong positive correlation between >complexity of the text and seriousness of the questions addressed. Which brings me, actually, to something that's been on my mind during the Aftermath thread, but it kind of began in the Deliverance thread, to be honest, so I thought I'd try and verbalise it here. In fact, I think I'll go the whole pretentious hog... THE STATE OF THE NATION: "SLOPPY" WRITING AND AFTERMATH (by Fiona Moore, class 5b) In the recent discussion of the episode Aftermath on Lysator, some interesting suggestions have come to light vis-a-vis the character of Hal Mellanby. While these items are of interest in and of themselves in terms of the interpretation of the episode, they also point to differences in the writing styles and orientations to the viewer of the principal writers on B7. Viewing Aftermath again, it comes across as more complex than initial viewing might suggest. It is possible to see Hal Mellanby--as I did when I first watched Aftermath--as just someone like Blake but more fallible-- he had an ideal and took a stupid chance, he was tortured and (as one does under torture) confessed, and managed to get lucky and escape. However, watching it back, one can see under this message the pattern of a deeper guilt, pointing to something darker-- the allusions to Prospero, the ambiguity about Lauren's presence, Mellanby's almost ingratiating eagerness to tell Avon his story, and yet the indication later on that this isn't the version he has told his daughter, and Mellanby's hypocritical scruples with regard to manufacturing weapons and yet refusing to use them. The final scene with Servalan is particularly interesting, in that Servalan never actually accuses Mellanby of anything beyond leading a revolt; she says a series of ambiguous phrases which evidently hit a nerve, and cause Mellanby to reveal more than he should. The suggestion at the end of the story is that Mellanby was an arms dealer who led an uprising of which he and his daughter were the only survivors-- but the fact that he escaped, the mysterious "chance to save Dayna" which he took (and, interestingly, which he never explains, suggesting that there was something dodgy about it), the fact that before he left Earth he was somehow fitted with vision-augmenting technology (without which he could not have flown the spaceship), the fact that he watched his friends and family die (and there is additionally the suggestion that this was a deliberate massacre; as one is unlikely to bring children along to a riot, it seems likely that the families of the conspirators were rounded up after their capture), all expose Mellanby as a self-serving hypocrite who cut a deal with the Federation to save his own life. But the question is, is this interpretation just down to poor writing on Terry Nation's part-- is the darkness not there, but he has written the story so sloppily that it can be read in? I would say not, and here's why: because there's a *pattern* to the omissions with regard to Mellanby. We get three different stories about him-- his own, the story he told Dayna, the story Servalan weasels out of him at the end. While changes between episodes or series are more understandable, it would take a mentally subnormal writer to forget a character's backstory from one scene to the next. Lauren's presence, as has been noted, is never fully explained-- but why put the character in at all, then? Working on a limited budget, you don't want to hire more actors than you need. Perhaps Lauren's very function is to be ambiguous, and leave some doubt about Mellanby's story. Poor writing is not the presence of ambiguities and unexplained gaps per se (some of the best films are full of unexplained moments), but the randomness of these, the presence of one or two glaring absences in a script otherwise carefully-written. So Terry Nation, rather than writing sloppily, seems to be doing something rather clever-- he's putting forward a story that can be seen as a simple story on the first viewing, and on the second viewing as a simple story with some holes in it, but if you care enough to view it a few more times, a more complicated strand emerges which makes sense of the holes-- and makes the story less simple. Furthermore, it is interesting that it is only the viewer who hears all three of the versions of Mellanby's story-- even Servalan never learns the whole truth, but the viewer, as in Kurosawa's *Rashomon,* is given all the clues they need to piece together what happened on Earth. Aftermath is not the only Nation story of this type, either. As was discussed elsewhere, Deliverance is another story which looks simple with a bit of sloppy writing--H. Rider Haggard in space, complete with a scantily-clad priestess--but then when it is looked at more closely, the story transforms into a complex tale of traps which speculates on the nature of Messiahdom and the impact of the fulfilment of prophecies on millenarian societies. Now here's where I'd like to bring Chris Boucher into this. Chris also writes very complicated stories, but the complexity is always accessable to the viewer. You have to work a bit to understand some of the things going on in, say, Weapon-- but you know there's something going on, and you feel like watching it again until you understand. Terry Nation, by contrast, is a showman-- he gives the public what it wants, and it wants bug-eyed monsters, Robin Hood, and H. Rider Haggard. But Nation is also intelligent, and so, while he is cynically giving the public what it wants, he is also writing something else below the surface, sufficiently deep down that most of his audience will miss it completely (it's interesting that the only time when Nation's subtext does become accessable is in "Genesis of the Daleks," which was heavily edited by Robert Holmes, Chris Boucher's mentor). It's also interesting that Chris Boucher seems to be at his best when writing in an established formula. Writing for Doctor Who and B7, the premises of the medium are already simple, and so he can take these and write a story which is rather on the complex end for each of these series. Freed from these constraints, he writes a show--Star Cops--which is liked by intelligent cognoscienti, but alienates the ordinary viewer (don't blame the naff effects, either. B7 had worse, and got four series). Nation, by contrast, specialises in taking simple premises that sell--Robin Hood in space, post-apocalyptic survivalism, Nazi stories-- and writing them into something simple that sells, but which has a much deeper message underneath, if only the viewer can be bothered to analyse it. So in the end, it perhaps isn't fair to say that Terry Nation is a less complex, or more sloppy, writer than Chris Boucher or Robert Holmes. All are equally complex-- the difference, however, is that the latter two overestimate the ability of their audience to cope with a complex message, and the former underestimates it. Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Thesis, what thesis? at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [B7L] surveillance cameras
by J MacQueen 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

>From: Tavia <tavia(a)btinternet.com> >I don't imagine an id card would have many advantages for the users, No, I don't either. That's why I put it the way I did. Should've added that the bureaucrats would want it electronically readable, which we don't need, when all that's really required is some sort of card which has a name, a photograph, and a signature on it. That'd say "This is me, now give me those blinking cards that allow me access to my money!", which is the main reason I need something of the sort. Something simple, so that anyone who wanted or needed to establish another identity could do so. Not that I see that happening - you see the fuss that would be made by the Laura Norder mob, oh dear me, we'd be heading for anarchy if it was that easy to get a new name! No, it's too simple, and makes other things more complex. We need it and we don't need it. I don't know what the solution is, but it certainly isn't a tattooed shuffler in a British shopping complex, right, Una? >particularly not hitched to a system where one had to carry such, and >presumably therefore had to go by a single name? I used to rather enjoy >having three or four different identities... (confuse the bastards...) And serve them right too! More often than not they deserve to be confused, seeing as they think it best to confuse others. <shakes head> Now what am I going to do with all these worms from that can? Regards Joanne Note: if you skip really fast in one spot, with a haughty expression on your face - it's flamenco! --Joy Sikorski, How to draw a clam. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Terry Nation as Writer
by Fiona Moore 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

>From: Tavia <tavia(a)btinternet.com> >Re Fiona's interesting post. Thank you :). >One could postulate other reasons for the set-up in 'Aftermath'. > >The episode is obviously intended to introduce Dayna. Reading 'The Inside >Story' it's apparent that Josette Simon was hired primarily for her skin >colour, youth, looks, and lack of ethnic or American accent. Although Anthony Brown, the editor of InVision, had a chance recently to see the contemporary list of people up for the part, and tells me that they weren't specifically looking for an ethnic actress when they were casting (he's also, btw, the man who got me the interesting bit of trivia about Maurice "Gangsters" Colbourne having been up for the part of Blake). IIRC the character had been created and the episode written before they were sure Josette Simon was hired, too--though they might have changed the name of the character at some point, I'm not sure. >there mentions only David Moloney and Vere Lorimer in this context, but >it's hard to see that they would have made casting decisions impacting so >obviously on character without overt back-up from Terry Nation, who owned >the concept and continued to write three key 3rd season episodes. On a >'give the gal a USP' principle, this blank young slate acquires the weapons >tech background. From there on in, one can see the episode 'Aftermath' >developing ... sexually naive young gal (the kiss in the cave), weapons >tech background (all the Hal Mellanby stuff to which Fiona refers), oh dear >we've lost Jenna, so we need a blonde bimbette replacement (Lauren). Following you on all of these, but I feel a bit lost on the last statement. AFAIK, Lauren was never intended to become a regular-- do you mean she was brought in to let the viewers think that she was going to join the crew? Or because the episode needed some blonde content :)? >Hack >writing at its worst (best?). But the fact that he was writing to a formula doesn't necessarily make the episode bad, or non-complex. Dickens was the perennial hack writer, after all, writing to a blatant formula; so was Sir Arthur Conan Doyle; Hemingway and Jules Verne had their hack episodes. All of these have produced works in this context which are no less than brilliant. I think what you say is right-- that Nation was given a particular set of things he had to do in Aftermath (introduce Dayna and give her some characterisation, tie up the loose ends of "Star One," introduce Tarrant at the very end). But I don't particularly see why he can't, within those confines, come up with something very good. Chris Boucher faced similar constraints on "Star One," after all. >I'm not saying this is what happened, but I think it's a plausible >alternative scenario. And I say it needn't necessarily be alternative, but I don't think the fact that it was being written as a character-introductory vehicle necessarily makes it a bad story, and indeed, it's stood up to analysis very well, I think. >Considering the 9 Chris Boucher episodes *as a whole*, a high proportion of >them have the plot complexity, the political machinations &c that Fiona >characterises as his style, though there are exceptions (Rescue, City). Yes-- though I think Rescue's brilliant too, myself (saw it over Christmas, fantastic). I haven't seen City in about a year, though, so I can't comment. >Considering the 19 Terry Nation episodes *as a whole*, a high proportion of >them appear to be basically hack adventure writing with any complexities >sufficiently well hidden as to escape this viewer entirely. Erm, well... remember how when we looked at Deliverance (which I for one had always thought was a fairly facile episode, up until Feb.), we found a whole bunch of interesting things that we hadn't realised were there? We couldn't have spun the discussion out for four weeks without there being something to discuss. And how just now, a seeming characterisation gap in TWB/Space Fall turned out not to be one? And the same with Aftermath-- whether or not you agree with me that there's something dodgy about Hal, several people on this thread have been talking in terms of references to Shakespeare, to the ambiguity about Lauren, etc. My point is, Nation wrote stories which look simple, because he was of the opinion that simple sells (and he was right, perhaps unfortunately). But at least three of his stories do seem to provide material to talk about, and maybe the same can be said of at least some of the others too... And like I said, just cos something's hack writing doesn't mean it isn't complex :). Terry Nation: hack, yes. Stupid or sloppy, no. Fiona The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane Hack writing at its finest at http://nyder.r67.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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re: Perceptions
by Alison Page 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

Me, Tavia >> a quite simple piece of B7 fanfic can challenge >> axioms to do with the separation of producer >> and consumer, or the location of the 'frame' that separates >> reading a text from responding to it, and soon. >While all this is true, indeed self-evident, surely it applies to *all* fanfic, independent of any other criteria. Yes. Ok, I'm getting into this, so bear with me. What if the very simplicity or indeed amateurishness of a piece of fanfiction (its cheekiness if you like) is part of its message. That's pretty challenging and interesting in itself. But only (I would say) if it is cheeky *and* very enjoyable. The same as punk rock, or any other raw human art form, only works if it is good fun, or very clever, or something like that. If it is just a bloody noise that you would rather not listen to, it is more likely to repel people, make them prefer commercial products. I think in that respect fanfic is more successful than punk, because it is more consistently enjoyed, and has avoided selling out. Punk tended to go one way or the other. Alison ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************

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Re: [B7L] leaving the lyst (Sorry to see you go Shane)
by Rita d' Orac 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

Cheryl _ <avonsgirl(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote: <snip> > I didn't always agree with what Shane said and how he > sometimes expressed himself but these moments were in > the minority, for the main, what he said made alot of > sense and this farewell post of his is no exception > (to my mind) I for one will be sorry to see him go and > I am deeply sorry to have read that Kathryn has left > as well...pity. <more snip> On the whole I'd have to agree with you Cheryl. I did not always like the tone of some of Shane's posts and I felt that his continually getting at Annie/Leah or any other individuals on the list was both pointless and unhelpful in building up a case to support his viewpoint on slash. We all understood the issues he raised regarding their viewpoints and we read their replies and are quite capable of making up our own minds without those issues being reiterated again and again. Having said all that, I am glad that Shane persisted in keeping the slash debate going in the face of a lot of opposition, because the issue *is* on topic and has enough impact on Blake's 7 fandom to merit lengthy discussion by any fans who are interested in discussing it. I had thought that the Lysator list was an appropriate forum for this type of discussion (I'm sure Calle will tell me if this is not the case...). I do appreciate that there are people on this list who don't want to read or reply to posts on this topic, but as with all other posts that are on topic but don't interest them, they should just ignore the posts relating to this topic. I hope Shane reconsiders and comes back to the list, along with all the others who un-subbed recently. Phew! that all came out a bit heavier than I intended it to be...back to penguins now I think... ===== rita d'orac "If you think of this mouse as a space captain..." http://www.vilaworld.com ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

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RE: [B7L] speeding (was surveillance cameras )
by Louise Rutter 03 Apr '01

03 Apr '01

Jacqueline wrote: >When they were arguing about the maximum >speed in Holland, one of the reasons for not raising the speed limit was >that because of air friction really starting to matter around that speed, a >car going faster than, say, 100 kph is going to produce a *lot* more carbon >monoxide and other fun gases. The environmental argument is the one with real merit - unfortunately, to be logical about it, all forms of motorsport should obviously be banned. Hey, at least the subject got discussed in Holland. I suspect any attempt to even open that debate in this country would be howled down. SInce I can't tie this in to B7 at all, I'd suggest it move to the spin list if anyone has further comments. Louise

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