Blakes7

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5511 discussions

Re: [B7L] Subtext vs Character
by Tavia Chalcraft 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Most fiction analysis allows several levels of characters, from the real live complicated ones (eg Avon) to the ones who are partly or wholely cliche or archetype or soapbox (eg Meegat). Tavia

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re: handmaid's tale
by Alison Page 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Dana said >>Aw, Alison! The first rule of Fight Club is that you do not talk about Fight Club...now we can't keep them in line by threatening them with C/R groups Well, there was that time we attacked Norman Mailer with nunchuks Alison ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************

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The handmaid's tale
by Alison Page 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Crikey, I've got to step in here. >>Basically one of the points Atwood seems to be making is that there are sinister similarities between the hardliners on both fronts, and raising the question of whether a feminist utopia would have been better than (or even different from) the Christian one shown in the book. Well, I think point she is making is the reverse of what you say - that people can start from very good motives that we as feminists and liberals (well, I am anyway) might agree with, but that by using oppressive *methods* to acquire these ends they end up committing evil acts. But the main issue in the book is to satirise the way we in the west turn a blind eye to the oppression of people (in particular women) by other cultures in the name of cultural relativism or respect for religious differences. The point of the handmaid's tale is to say - look, it suddenly doesn't seem so acceptable when it is white middle class western women being oppressed. Attwood has given numerous interviews on this subject. Yes I *know* we can read anything we like into a book, and of course I'm not trying to stop you taking away any message you like from it, but I thought people might be interested to hear another perspective. >>The indoctrination techniques in the story are actually startlingly similar to those used in feminist consciousness-raising groups as well. Whoah!! Now this is something I have got an informed opinion on. In the handmaid's tale women are beaten to unconsciousness, raped, imprisoned for months on end, tortured, have their children taken away and so on. Now, I spent much of the eighties in feminist groups, and I'm sure I would have remembered if any of this went on. What happens in a consciousness raising group (happened, they don't seem to exist in this form any more) is that you sit around on uncomfy chairs, and take it in turns to share stories from your life. Like the following type of exchange: 'The men in my office expect me to make the tea every day, and they never do.' 'Why don't you tell them how you feel, they might not have realised how fed up you are about it' They talk about other stuff like sex, domestic violence etc. too. But don't have fantasies about imprisonment and beatings. It's more like AA or something. I apologise that this is so OT, but things seemed to be getting a bit out of hand. Alison ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************

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Re: [B7L] Re: torture & h/c
by Tavia Chalcraft 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Mistral wrote: >But the problem with exposing the inner man - >most people edit their thoughts before they voice >them ...Which leaves the author the choice of editing >the character's thoughts to make them sound like external >voice - thereby removing the closeness again - or >writing what one thinks the inner dialogue actually is - >and risk rendering the character's voice unrecognizable >to the reader. It's IMHO a bit tricky. >Mostly, I prefer characterization to come through >actions and dialogue. True, but there's a deal of satisfaction to be gained from making the thought patterns reveal the inner person, weaker than the outer persona yet recognisably the same character. Especially in Avon's case I love the mismatch between overt conscious thoughts, partially hidden yet underlying thoughts, which the reader infers but the character can't see, and actions. Okay, so I'm not a good enough writer to produce this convincingly, but that never stopped me wishing.... I'd rather try -- and fail -- to achieve this, than be forced to stab Avon in the lung every time I want him to express any sentiment. I also think the reprographic technique of B7 writing (to quote one of Neil's excellent essays) -- ie reproducing the on-screen characters is the *most* important thing -- can leave a lot to be desired. Tavia

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Re: [B7L] characters vs interesting stuff
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Mistral wrote: <Of course it can't be entirely type-related because there's no accounting for Neil;> I am now waiting for one of the usual suspects to point out that Neil is unique ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: Subtext vs Character
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Neil wrote: <If Blake's behaviour in Horizon (the communal eating scene) is anything too by, it would have said exactly the same things in an even more obvious way.> Well - to go back two days' worth of thread - he's even less of a rocket scientist than Jenna or Avon. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] characters vs interesting stuff
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Una wrote: <Plot is the annoying stuff you have to manufacture in order to get characters from interesting ethical dilemma 1 to interesting ethical dilemma 2.> Or steal from someone else. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: 25%
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Neil wrote: <Actually I think these figures are next to useless, especially in the case of rescues (in compiling the Sevencyclopaedia I tended to overlook rescues, partly because they were often so difficult to define).> Possibly, but it does make sense that the three top rescuees are Dayna, Blake *and Tarrant* - definitely the ones most caution-and-common-sense-challenged, wouldn't you agree? What suprises me is that Tarrant isn't down for any rescues - I wonder where my image of him as Lord of the Cavalry Charges comes from? Anyone? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: Re [B7L] Deliverance - keg marxist take
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

A couple more thoughts, entirely frivolous (I'm going back to the Shallow Side, people). Re the talk of imperialism, H Rider Haggard etc and She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed, I found her and the book extremely funny, but that could be 'cause I was exposed to Rumpole's 'She' first ... ... and Neil's "It is glib propaganda for armchair adventurers who need to be reassured that civilisation amounts to supremacy and that technological sophistication is the only kind worth a damn." Errrmmm ... this is of course why Nation also showed us that White Man armed with wonderful super-futuristic guns is no match for Hairy Barbarian armed with amazing polystyrene rocks and stones, and has to run away (and would have been Up Creek without paddle had not Grecian-robed Barbarian saved him :-)). "Ultimately, it endorses a self-granted mandate to invade the lives of so-called inferior peoples ..." Now be fair. Our Heroes did *not* go to the planet either to exploit nor to explore but to resuce people who'd landed their by 'accident' then rescue one of the rescuers. They had no intention of sticking around long enough to set eyes on the so-called inferiors, let alone invade their lives - it's really the other way around, said peoples invaded their lives, and rather stroppily. As far as the tribespeople are concerned, Our Heroes did nothing more than take back what was theirs (one of their crewmates) and then leave. And - lest we all forget - Avon doing the technological whizz-bang bit (and I still think one should have to do more than press a few buttons to achieve godhood, BTW) WAS ALL MEEGAT'S IDEA. She not only aksed him to, she made it rather more than difficult for him to demur. This particular 'inferior peoples' dragged was the one dragging the 'superior' one into the whole thing. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re [B7L] Deliverance - keg marxist take
by Natasa Tucev 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

The Marxist Department of the Lyst established: >What we have here, then, is a pernicious piece of colonialist nostalgia, >wistfully dreaming of the good old days when the sun never set on the >Empire. It is glib propaganda for armchair adventurers who need to be >reassured that civilisation amounts to supremacy and that technological >sophistication is the only kind worth a damn. Ultimately, it endorses a >self-granted mandate to invade the lives of so-called inferior peoples, >prove one's superiority and promptly walk out again without care or >consideration for the consequences. Bravo! Bravo! Excellent! Let us be fair to B7, however, and note that in general its underlying world-view is far from being imperialistic. The Federation are the imperialists, and they are the bad guys. As for the rebels, from the very beginning it is the case of 'proles of all planets unite'. Bran Foster's gang of rebels who live on Earth (cultural centre) neither resent nor despise the inhabitants of the Outer Planets (cultural periphery), but discuss the ways to help them gain independence. Also, take 'Horizon', with its obvious allusions to India, and see how Blake encourages Ro to break away from the colonizing influence upon his mind, ask himself what his father (i.e., the past, ancestry, tradition) would do, and act accordingly. N.

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