Blakes7

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5511 discussions

Re: 25%
by Helen Krummenacker 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

> > Helen wrote: > <What always sticks out in my mind is how d*mn many times Blake needed > Avon to bail him out.> > > Oh yes, but be fair, just about *everyone* got their turn at rescuing > Fearless Leader, including people they never even met (Rashel, for > instance). > Precisely! Blake needed rescuing more often, I think, than any of the gals. Although since Cally had 3 seasons, I could be wrong. Blake was rescued both by male and (as you just pointed out) female characters.

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Re: Deliverance
by Helen Krummenacker 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

> True. What I meant was, ignore the characters as characters, but don't > ignore them as representations of an ideological position. See them for > *what* they stand for, rather than *who* they are. > > EG: Avon - educated, civilised, visitor, knowing, scientific. And male, of > course. > Meegat - uneducated, primitive, native, ignorant, spiritual. And female, by > some strange quirk of coincidence. > This only works if you agree characters are *meant* to be symbols, rather than people. As a writer, I try to write my characters, for the most part, as people. Only the bad guys symbolize the part they play (nasty-minded criminal; greedy corporate person who has no conscience yet exploits people without breaking laws; thrill-seeker). I myself am an educated yet degreeless woman who is strongly disposed towards science but has had some 'psychic' experiences which I believe have a scientific explanation that will one day be discovered and religious ideas that have been influenced by my upbringing yet differ from my parents' and certainly divert from the mainstream of society. People are complex and do not 'represent' something unless they choose to do so (in real life) or are chosen to do so (by the author in fiction). To do a literary analysis is to impose one's own views on a situation, and as the analysist has a strong need to FIND symbolism, they will create it where it may very well not exist. Don't say that's not true. We've all had to write papers for English class where we knew perfectly well we were shovelling it but had to make a point and back it up to get the grades we needed. Well, most of us. Some people may really beieve all the symbols they uncover are truely meant as such.

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Re:hurt/comfort-- why Avon?
by Helen Krummenacker 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

> Gan, > being a big, powerful man *isn't* physically vulnerable, and the amount of > hurt involved to - well, *hurt* - would probably go rather a long way beyond > my squick factor. Avon underwent 4 days of torture before tehy sent in Shrinker. I seem to remember some stains that would suggest blood had been drawn at times; there were screams in the background as Shrinker talked to him. He underwent this voluntarily. At any point he could have turned off his transmitter and been pulled out by his friends. Just because Gan's bigger doesn't mean he can take more without being bothered. In fact, it could be argured a large man would hardly ever be physically attacked and might not have much resistance to it. Add to that his Limiter keeping him from being able to use the full amount of force, and I would say he is more vulnerable than Avon.

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Re: [B7L] Re:hurt/comfort-- why Avon?
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Ellynne wrote: <Skipping Avon's ability to endure torture for four days and his desire too off and enjoy possible death from radiation WITHOUT a group bonding experience, I think he'd make an awful patient.> <gurgle> couldn't agree with you more, and in quite a few stories he *is*, he *is* (one of the most unlikely - to *me* - ones was with Avon ill and Gan playing nurse - and mollycoddling him. And Avon liked it. Oh dear oh dear oh dear ...) Thinking about this, I got to thinking some more about the actual stories - among those I love - that I *would* say carried a strong (not necessarily sole) h/c thread. After all, it doesn't have to be h/c and nothing else - and in a good story, often isn't. My taste is mostly A-B (bet that all surprised you <g>) and includes slash, so perhaps my impressions would be different to someone who only read/enjoyed gen. But I did come up with a few suggestions that maybe can help explain ... or not. Anyway. The Macchiavelli Factor - the central part of this involves a thread of pure, classic A-B hurt comfort with all the trappings: Avon near death but hanging on by sheer will, Avon being a <ahem> difficult if not impossible patient, lots of fireworks with Blake enforcing the care and comfort and Avon getting narky about it, the odd and very breif moments when Avon lets his vulnerability/well-hidden feelings show (he's usually barely conscious <g>), a big blow-up and the obligatory working it all out emotional bit. Lovely: and a good illustration *of* the point I made about Blake being a good comfortee because Avon can't bullock him. The Thousandth Man - lots of hurt and plenty of guilt-laced angst (Avon's being torured, Blake's forced to watch); Avon's too badly hurt to let the emotions out *verbally*, so there's a reliance on him instinctive (semi-consciously) turning to Blake for the help he needs. Well, that's the way *I* read it ... The Road to Hell - I don't know if anyone else would call this one h/c, but I would argue it belongs in there. Blake's suffering, Avon's as guilty as hell and is *trying* (in a perfectly Avonish way) to help and atone for it, while trying to appear his normal stand-offish self. A/B does have one element to up the angst level that others don't manage as well - the guilt factor. Since it's so easy to propose that whatever HORRIBLE THINGS are happening to Avon, they're probably a result of his less-than-wholehearted involvement in Blake's rebellion, there's a perfect (and seldom overlooked) way to [a] turn the emotional thumbscrews up a notch on Fearless Leader and [b] provide more fireworks if Avon then turns on *him* over it. Making one of the others 'at fault' for everything takes considerably more work. One more think I just thunk - the wonderful world of PGPs. From my reading, one has to say that hurt-comfort is a common element in most of the non-tragic ones; possibly not deliberate, but it's almost inherent in the setup, Blake shot, Avon the guilty party, their lives in shambles. The h/c element is *especially* prevalent in the subset that Susan Beth wonderfully labelled "Avon shot Blake, poor Avon ..." _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re: the patriarchy
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

After helen wrote: <Of course, Cally and Jenna should have had better roles with more leadership.> Ellynne replied: <Better roles, yes. Leadership, Jenna only. Whether because she had a certain reserve or because she was self-conscious of her outsider status, Cally never struck me as the leader type.> Interesting ... if I was to allow it for either, I'd've gone the other way. Jenna's breif stint at 2-i-c in Bounty is good, but other than that she's a leaner when she's got someone strong to lean *on* (notice that in most battles, she sits back and waits for Blake to make all the decisions she *ought* to be doing, or at least suggesting as pilot: Breakdown and Redemption the most glaring examples). Cally would be a reluctant leader but I think has the strength (well, up till she turns into Super-Marmee) to mould herself into the role, as Avon had to. Problem is, does she have the force of *personality*? Could Cally have taken over as leader after Star One, if she'd decided that they had to keep fighting? Dunno ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re:hurt/comfort-- why Avon?
by Sally Manton 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Helen wrote: <Avon underwent 4 days of torture before tehy sent in Shrinker. I seem to remember some stains that would suggest blood had been drawn at times; there were screams in the background as Shrinker talked to him. He underwent this voluntarily. At any point he could have turned off his transmitter and been pulled out by his friends.> All perfectly true, but (as a devotee of Beautiful Suffering, especially for one of the people I think he cares about) rather beside the point. The fact that he could withstand the pain doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt. And a great deal of the appeal of Avon-torure *is* watching him be stoic in a Good Cause. As I said, it's a balance between strength and vulnerability, and the balance I see in Avon is just right for me. Avon does give the *impression* of vulnerability under those shields, and Gan doesn't. Whether it's canonically true doesn't really matter in this instance, methinks, since fanfic writers are as much influenced (if not moreso) by what they read into the characters as what is strictly on screen. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Re: [B7L] Re:hurt/comfort-- why Avon?
by Ellynne G. 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

Been giving thought to why NOT Avon. Skipping Avon's ability to endure torture for four days and his desire to go off and enjoy possible death from radiation WITHOUT a group bonding experience, I think he'd make an awful patient. I can just see Avon stuck in bed (they probably had to tie him down to do it [no other list comments, please. You know what I mean]). It would be "Vila, get me a glass of water. Now." and "Vila, give me the remote. Or else." not to mention, "Cally, I'll humor your delusion I actually need to rest, but I refuse to do it in these barbaric surroundings. I want a fluffier pillow. Two of them. And get me the electric blanket. And I said chicken _broth_, not boullion. And _hot_. Vila can show you how to use the microwave. He's in the kitchen fixing soup. Oh, and remind him that it's just an eighth teaspoon of sweet paprika or he'll have to toss this batch, too. "And tell Orac I want my science magazines back. Now." Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Re: the patriarchy
by Ellynne G. 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:27:06 -0700 Helen Krummenacker <avona(a)jps.net> writes: > > Of course, Cally and Jenna should have had better roles with more > leadership. Better roles, yes. Leadership, Jenna only. Whether because she had a certain reserve or because she was self-conscious of her outsider status, Cally never struck me as the leader type. She could be independent but, once she had identified with a cause, I think she prefered working along side someone to taking the lead herself (at least when working with humans). Dayna should have had a dramatic, solo death as her > desire > to kill Servalan pushed her beyond the bounds of sense. Soolin might > have not rejoined the other rebels on Guada Prime and had a spin-off > series of her own. The one problem with Blake is that Avon, Blake, and Vila all have such _fitting_ deaths. Tarrant, Dayna, and Soolin are just cleared away (Tarrant should do something last mannish where, given the chance to surrender, he instead charges the enemy [but then what to do with Avon?]. Dayna's death _should_ have involved her grudge with Servalan and given it some sense of completion [actually, I think Dayna should get rid of Servalan only to replace her (but, again, what to do with Avon?)]. As for Soolin, her death should have something to do with her past coming back to haunt her [Arlen's her sister? Please, no]). That's what I'd do to get rid of the bias that > was > inherent in the series-- the main one being that the nice girls let > the > boys be leader instead of pushing their own agendas. I would have liked to see them pushing their own agendas while quietly tolerating the boys' delusion they were in charge (you want to destroy the Federation, Blake? That's nice. Jenna, reset the course, will you - don't worry, Blake, you'll get your turn. Later). I think I still have Avon's aunts on the mind. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: Matriarchs (was Re: [B7L] Further to the last post)
by Ellynne G. 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:00:57 +1100 Kathryn Andersen <kat(a)welkin.apana.org.au> writes: > Why do I suddenly recall that thread about Avon's Aunts? I admit, I was thinking of them, all six of them, what one text defines as "a suffocation of aunts," the kind of people who make meeting Travis in a dark alley seem like a good thing . . . . Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Further to the last post
by Ellynne G. 06 Feb '01

06 Feb '01

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:47:45 -0000 "Fiona Moore" <nydersdyner(a)yahoo.co.uk> writes: > Something else occurs to me in all this. > , I'd like to point out > that in > most societies, or at least Indo-European ones, women are seen as > being the > ones who are the guardians of culture, An interesting point, especially from an American point of view (the first wave of settlement in the U.S. was always predominantly male, a fact which had interesting effects on attitudes and history [Wyoming gave women the right to vote partly in an effort to attract more women to the territory, the gender ratio at that time being about 5 to 1. The only time I know of where Congress took away the right of women to vote in a U.S. territory was in one of the few where women had actually come to outnumber men (they were also showing a tendency to vote in ways that Congress didn't like, which was used as evidence that women were not capable of voting in an intelligent, independent manner)]). Anyhow, it was frequently said that civilization came to a territory when women came (some frontiersmen seem to have said this with considerable regret for the change). > > Now, interestingly enough, in these same cultures, although the > women are > the guardians of culture, it's the men, specifically the elite men, > who > guide what the values of that culture are. Interesting side note. In the 19th century, writing books on proper behavior, manners, etc. was quite popular (to make a long story short, when society's in flux, it becomes more important to define these things in authoratative detail). In Britain, nearly all these books were written by men, making them the guides. In the U.S. nearly all these books were written by women. I could comment, but not in less than three pages, so I will refrain. Ob. B7. I have this mental picture now of Avon trapped in the 19th century with a bunch of very proper matriarch types all set on reforming him. Avon: I have always considered self-interest the basis of human nature. Matriarch: Nature, Mr. Avon, is something we were put here to rise above. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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