Blakes7 February 2001

blakes7@lists.lysator.liu.se

80 participants
929 discussions

Re: [B7l] The Gospel
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 26 Feb '01

26 Feb '01

My response to this post has somehow gone astray. Rewriting/reposting here: > actual email: > KNOCK KNOCK > There's a handsome wolf at the door. Let him > in and he > will take away everything, including your > reason for > living, and then leave you to die. > Deliverance is not sexist-- it is not > imperialist-- it > is not misogynistic-- it's a test. Only the > victim > will find excuses and fight to open the door > and let > the wolf in. Even when the truth is spelt out > to them. > THINK.... WHICH ARE YOU-- WOLF OR SHEEP? > Wendy Thanks for reposting that, that's useful to have. > the thread. For what it's > worth, this was the post that irritated me > most and I believe others must > have reacted in the same way because despite > Mr. Little's own interpretation Please! Call me Shane! > this struck me as a direct criticism of > failing to understand (despite the > truth being spelt out to me) that I am making > excuses to accept an existing > paradigm (and based on the handsome wolf- > leave to die reference one > directly referring to the poster's position > on sexism of the episode) > because I am a sheep. Reading it back, I can see how that post might, coming at the time it did, have been problematic for many. However, one interesting thing about it is that it states that "Deliverance is not sexist, misogynist [etc]" Which suggests that this post can't be an assertion that anyone who doesn't see Deliverance as sexist is stupid, since by definition that would include Wendy herself. The crux of the matter as I see it lies in the "Wolf or Sheep" question. As I said, I believe the answer to be "both,"-- after all, in Deliverance itself and in the Deliverance thread, everybody acted like wolves and like sheep at different times. That's what it is to be human. The nature of riddles is to be obscure, and to require analysis to puzzle out the meaning. Which is what I am trying to do here. Shane "We were bait in a trap you laid for him, Avon"--Soolin

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Re:Thread hi-jacking
by Helen Krummenacker 26 Feb '01

26 Feb '01

> > But I have seen the serious-posters suggest that interruptions aren't > permissible. Not *all* serious posters (at least, I think I fall under that heading)! I stuck up for the right of anyone to make their own responses to serious threads. > aybe I'm missing something, which is quite possible, especially since I'm > not an Avon Luster... But I've not seen Avon Lusters request that other fans > not interrupt their threads. They may not like it. Actually, most of them seem to take it very well. After all, Tarrant-lusters and Travis-lusters often interrupt Avon-Lust to promote their own favorite. A.S.K.S. members have been known to try to put an Avon-lust thread into their own spin, which is an emotional/mental kindred feeling. Neither of which I've seen done for a while, but it never caused any trouble that I remember.

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Re: [B7l] The Gospel
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 26 Feb '01

26 Feb '01

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Technical problem
by Helen Krummenacker 26 Feb '01

26 Feb '01

I'm not getting all posts, or Lysts, in proper order. That is; I'm getting responses before the originating posts. Also, several times I'm seeing more than one copy of the same post. Are others having this problem or is it just on my end?

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Re: [B7L] Deliverance (was: Gospel)
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 26 Feb '01

26 Feb '01

Seems my original reply on the subject went astray, not sure how. Anyway, since I was away at the time of the original thread and only caught the tail end, I'd just like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to give my two penneth on the episode. > I see 'Deliverance' as a defining episode for > Avon. I see it as a significant, but not necessarily defining, one. An episode that brought > one more dimension to his character. This is > over-simplifying, but I see a > 'kinder, gentler' Avon here. Which is way out > of character for what we've > seen up to this point. Actually, I don't see anything out of character in Avon's actions at all. Avon, while proving his leadership abilities to Blake, manages to lose Jenna; to save face, he returns and strikes a bargain with one of the natives in exchange for shelter and help finding her--notice that he doesn't help Meegat, other than by switching the lights on, until he knows Jenna is safe. It's not unknown for him to agree to provide a service in exchange for the help he needs to achieve his own ends, nor, for that matter, to fancy a woman. Just as 'Aftermath' > showed us that Avon does have > some social manners and that he can be a > gracious guest, Well, we've always been told that Avon is above all a civilized man, and since he was in the house of a fellow rebel who admires his work, he was hardly likely to smash up the furniture and rape the Mellanby women... > But in this case, I felt he was genuinely > touched by Meegat's pathetic, There's something pathetic about her, it's true... > selfless devotion to the prophecy and by her > genuine innosence. Hang on, though, I think there's something deeper here. Operating from the hypothesis that Deliverance is a riddle, a test if you will, I think Meegat can be seen as (forgive me, feminist faction) the bait in the trap. The Fathers, we learn, needed a man (Meegat is looking for a Lord, not just anyone) with the skills to fire off the rocket-- an outworlder, presumably, as the local population don't seem up to the task. Now, if that man is the sort to fire off the rocket out of the goodness of his own heart, then all he needs is someone to point him in the right direction. Most people, however, need a little more incentive than that. Furthermore, you don't want him sticking around afterwards, or talking to too many people while he's there. Messiahs who hang about after they save the world can be dangerous. And the Fathers were very aware that their Messiah was only a man, and thus that whatever action he took after he'd fired off the rocket, he could never come up to people's expectations. Consequently, you set up a scenario in which your technical expert is greeted by a pretty young woman with a request for help, and who knows how to identify the man with the skills needed to fire off the rocket. By appealing to his erotic rather than his intellectual or other faculties, you ensure that he'll stick around long enough to do the task, but that he won't hang about for too long afterwards; as the great poet said, cookin' lasts and kissin' don't. A much more sensible approach than that of the society in 'Time Squad,' whose aggressive attitude got their gene bank thrown into the void for their pains. When Avon enters the cave he is initially wary. However, Meegat, by appealing to his ego, holds his interest long enough for him to work out that a bargain of mutual benefit can be struck. While he works, he has contact with no one from the Cephlon society--which might reveal the hero's feet of clay--other than Meegat. And yes, there does seem to be an attraction between them during this-- but evidently not one with a strong enough pull to keep him there or to cause him to take her with him. By leaving, however, Avon frees the population. He has to disillusion poor Meegat in doing so, of course. But by disillusioning her, he leaves her and her society free to get on with their lives, post-prophecy.

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Re: [B7L] Hurt/Comfort and all that
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 26 Feb '01

26 Feb '01

British/American thing... it > occurs to me that some of my > favorite 'h/c' stories were written by Brits > and were written early on in > Blakes 7 fandom. .... These were the first 'angsty' stories > in the fandom... and they were > all written by Brits. In fact, very few > AMericans in those days had even > heard of B7. So, I have to ask -- what has > changed in England that would make > the fans now claim that high emotion and angst > and h/c are somehow 'out of > character' and 'Americanization' of Blakes 7? > We learned to do it from YOU > guys, if you go by the early *British* Blakes > 7 stories. H/c didn't originate from B7. It appears, and correct me if I'm wrong, to have originated in Star Trek fandom, years before B7 was written. So regardless of whether British people wrote B7 H/C, its origins were transatlantic. Write > whatever you please. And I think I'll do the > same, regardless of whether it > suits you or not. Whether it suits me or not is, of course, irrelevant. > > <<< So long as we're fans of the same series. > >>> > So, am I misunderstanding you or are you > telling me that unless I see > everything the way that *you* do, we aren't > 'fans of the same series'? That's > the way that sentence reads to me. Please > correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, you are misunderstanding me. This is the third--and last--time I'm stating this now: I'm just giving an opinion on a newsletter. Do what you like. > << Never said I wanted to change your mind. If > you want to try to change mine, > feel free, but what you said goes double. I > think you're confusing me with > Diane Gies. >> > I'm afraid you have also confused me with > this. I didn't mention Diane Gies > in any way, shape or form and I have no idea > what she has to do with this > conversation. Is she on this list and did I > miss her posts? > Annie I suggest you read my exchange of e-mails with Carol. To sum up: she is the president of a B7 fan-club called Horizon, and is well-known for having said in a memo which reached a wider audience than intended that she hated slash and intended to start a crusade against it-- for instance by not advertising conventions (such as Redemption, incidentally) at which slash is known to be sold. I'm told she *is* on the list but she doesn't post, or at least not under her own name. I may not like slash, but I wouldn't back any policy which prevents people from doing what they like, as long as it isn't hurting anyone else. Shane 'I am not insane' --Blake

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Threadliness (more like Lystian livestock)
by J MacQueen 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

>From: Stephen Date <stephend999(a)yahoo.co.uk> >Now take me to Cuba or the penguin gets it ! Leave the penguin alone. Take the giant, stuffed toy puffin in the children's section of my local Borders. It may mind rather less. Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Hurt/Comfort and all that
by Ashton7＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/23/01 3:08:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, littles(a)lycos.co.uk writes: << Nope, the English are guilty as well. But hang on, wasn't it you who came on the lyst a few days ago and said that British fans tend not to like H/C and the Americans do, cause for the Americans it's "normal"? Why the change of story?>>> Perhaps I expressed myself badly and wasn't clear enough. I never said that the Americans were the only ones writing h/c. I simply expressed the thought that it seemed to me that when protests happen, it is mainly British fans who don't seem to like the h/c genre and, in some cases, even want to exaggerate the situation and call h/c "sadistic." In American zines and among American fans, I have rarely encountered this attitude. Perhaps it is because by sheer weight of numbers there are more American fanzines for different fandoms all around. H/C is a misnomer for the genre, in my opinion, anyway. Because it has been my experience that the stories labelled h/c and the ones that seem to grip the greatest number of fans the most, are those that have what I call a high "angst factor." It is the "angst," whether it be caused by emotions or physical danger or *whatever* that makes this kind of story gripping. But, back to the British/American thing... it occurs to me that some of my favorite "h/c" stories were written by Brits and were written early on in Blakes 7 fandom. Stories like "Haunting of Haderon," "The Machiavellia Factor," "Mindfire," "Between Black and White," and many, many other early B7 stories. These were the first "angsty" stories in the fandom... and they were all written by Brits. In fact, very few AMericans in those days had even heard of B7. So, I have to ask -- what has changed in England that would make the fans now claim that high emotion and angst and h/c are somehow "out of character" and "Americanization" of Blakes 7? We learned to do it from YOU guys, if you go by the early *British* Blakes 7 stories. <<< Not saying it at all. Just wanting to propose a deal-- you don't have Avon making gushy speeches about his feelings, and I won't have Spock organise a union on the Enterprise and stage a sit-down in the transporter room. Remember what happened to Doctor Who: 26 years with the Beeb, 90 minutes in America. Half-human, indeed.>>> Well, no thanks. I think I'll pass. For one thing, I don't give a flying flip what you want to write about Spock or anyone else. Why should I? Write whatever you please. And I think I'll do the same, regardless of whether it suits you or not. <<< So long as we're fans of the same series.>>> So, am I misunderstanding you or are you telling me that unless I see everything the way that *you* do, we aren't "fans of the same series"? That's the way that sentence reads to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. << Never said I wanted to change your mind. If you want to try to change mine, feel free, but what you said goes double. I think you're confusing me with Diane Gies. >> I'm afraid you have also confused me with this. I didn't mention Diane Gies in any way, shape or form and I have no idea what she has to do with this conversation. Is she on this list and did I miss her posts? Annie

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Re: [B7L] Re:Deliverance/H/C
by Mac4781＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Ellynne wrote: > It's just that I like various aspects of stories where one > character is finally convinced to let down at least some of the infamous, > emotional guard. > > As such, I see the stories as being about the characters either admitting > feelings (sorry about the f word), especially trust and concern, they may > have for another character or characters. I think that is the focus of many h/c stories, and something I enjoy, especially when done in moderation. Some writers can convey a lot without the characters admitting to much verbally. But while trying to come up with the formula that Dana is seeking, I realized that h/c encompasses such a broad canvas that it isn't something I can fit into a single, simple equation. I came up with stories that I'd classify as h/c that have very little hurt and even less comfort. Often those stories could have been told without the h/c elements. But the stories would have been poorer for the absence. H/c added a complexity to the dynamics and the plot, just as Blake's getting injured added a complexity to STAR ONE. STAR ONE could have been told without that element, but it wouldn't have been as satisfying (for me, at least). Carol Mc

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Re: [B7L] Double Standards
by Bizarro7＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

In a message dated 2/24/01 8:38:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, Caveatemptor1(a)aol.com writes: << I very much hope this is not the reason we haven't heard from Penny lately. It would be a shame if hurt feelings were the cause of anyone leaving the list. >> All I'm going to say is that I'm well acquainted with another list, in another fandom, where a few individuals dominate most discussions and frequently dictate the tone, content and outcome of almost every thread. The moderator is a friend of these individuals, and when the moderator *does* bother to step in and enforce a list ruling, it's never against the chosen few, no matter how outrageously obvious the double standard in their behavior. The list of which I speak used to be huge. In fact, it became known as the "Big" list in this fandom. As a result of slow, ruthless onscreen flame wars on the part of the small group insisting on its way, the list has become so small that it isn't uncommon for a day or two to go by with no posting at all. Meanwhile, debates and discussions of all kind in this fandom go on in lists and Forums elsewhere on the net. The point is, everybody sees things differently. If you're on a public mailing list, there are going to be many people who don't agree with your viewpoint. If you insist on dominating, sooner or later you'll dominate--but don't be surprised when you look around one day and discover that the need to be 'right' all the time and win every discussion has meant that you now dominate a small clique, and nothing more. Leah

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Blakes7 February 2001