Blakes7 February 2001

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80 participants
929 discussions

Re: Re: [B7L] The Gospel
by Ellynne G. 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:44:21 -0000 "Fiona Moore" <nydersdyner(a)yahoo.co.uk> writes: > > I see a decided sexual, and otherwise, attraction to Avon on > Servalan's > part. For Avon's part, I see something a bit more ambiguous-- he > seems aware > of her attraction, and not above using it if need be, but he also > seems to > realize that she is incredibly dangerous-- see Aftermath. Avon is 1) Attracted to her (both physically and to some elements of her personality) 2) Also repulsed by some elements of her personality (some of them the same ones that attract him). 3) More accurately, there's this mingled loathing and respect 4) Flattered that she's attracted to him 5) Competitive - who's going to outsmart who (and who will be left standing when the dust clears). Ellynne > > > > > -Blake is a noble idealist whose singlemindedness > > > frequently blinds him to > > > > other people's needs, making him cold and > > > insensitive > > > > > > Hmm. I think people's views of Blake differ a > > > *lot*. Heck, mine > > > fluctuate all over the place, especially when I'm > > > reading/writing > > > fanfic. > > Again, fair enough, but this the view I've seen expressed most > often. > > > > > -H/C fiction is a great way of exploring the more > > > intimate side of a > > > > character, and neither it nor slash particularly > > > offend anyone > > > > > > I think all of us are very much aware that some > > > people are offended by > > > slash. Me, I *wasn't* aware that some people were > > > offended by h/c. My > > > personal opinion is that both h/c and slash are > > > *valid* ways of > > > exploring the characters > > This is a genuine and serious question, I am *not* taking the mick-- > how is > it valid to the character to read in a relationship which most > people seem > to agree isn't there-- including the people who write those stories? > I mean, > I personally can see it as a fun thing to do for a bit of fantasy, > but I > don't see the character-exploration bit. > > > > Hmm. I like "The Daemons," too... > > So do I :). > > > > > Similarly, I've heard from other people that when > > > > a line in "Mark of Kane" suggested (didn't state, > > > just *suggested,* since > > > > there's no reason to assume Kane was telling the > > > truth) that Gan might have > > > > had a dark and evil side, a lot of people reacted > > > with shock, dismay and > > > > denials in the letters-of-comment in Horizon > > > instead of discussing the > > > > evidence pro and con. > > > > > > Hmm. Personally, I found that line *really* > > > disturbing, and all the > > > more so because it's so very, very *possible*. > > Me too <shudder>. > > Fiona > > The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane > Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Re: [B7L] Order of Precedence (was: One Two...)
by Mac4781＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Fiona (quoting me) wrote: > > Since I am a Godmother, however, I outrank you. :) > > Curses, foiled! How can I possibly hope to outrank > anything parenting-related? :) Oh my, I have been quiet on the lyst, haven't I? I'm going to lose my reputation if I'm not careful. I'm not just a parenting-related "Godmother," Fiona, I'm the Godmother of the dreaded Tarrant Nostra. We make fen offers they can't refuse. ;) Carol Mc

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Re:Deliverance
by littles＠lycos.co.uk 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Tavia wrote: > Fiona wrote: > >Neil has made several rational, intelligent posts lately > >on the subject of why he considers H/C to resemble S/M. > >Very few people have actually posted in to say "OK, Neil, > >I see your point," or "OK, Neil, but you're overlooking..." > >Either they haven't responded, or they've responded with > >categorical denials of the thesis of the debate which, as my > >old philosophy tutor used to say, is a non-starter. > > I would have responded to these at length, however at present it appears to > be tricky to discuss S&M and h/c without getting people's knickers in a > twist. And we wouldn't want to do that. Reading back the Deliverance debate in the archive, it seems to be impossible to discuss _anything_ without some people taking offence. Shane "What's wrong, is staying alive too complicated for you?" --Avon

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Gospel
by Caveatemptor1＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

<< Hi Fiona << I also found it kind of insulting when, after constructing a carefully thought-out argument with examples from the episode (and I'd watched it specially for that purpose), some people came on to say "Oh, that's just your *opinion,*" which made me wonder why I'd bothered to find all those supporting examples. >> Yes, some responses were just "that's just your opinion." But I also read responses which explained WHY they didn't see the examples the way you do. It sounds like what's bothering you is that you didn't change anyone's opinion. I'm not sure what you're expecting. FWIW, I *did* understand your arguement from your point of view. It's just not *my* point of view...so I don't agree. That doesn't mean either of us is wrong. I see "Deliverance" as a defining episode for Avon. An episode that brought one more dimension to his character. This is over-simplifying, but I see a "kinder, gentler" Avon here. Which is way out of character for what we've seen up to this point. Just as "Aftermath" showed us that Avon does have some social manners and that he can be a gracious guest, "Deliverance" implies he does actually have some good instincts. He just doesn't pay attention to them very often. :) But in this case, I felt he was genuinely touched by Meegat's pathetic, selfless devotion to the prophecy and by her genuine innosence. From what we've seen of Avon up to this point his response to her should have been, "I am not your Lord and I see no reason why we should involve ourselves in your problems." But, as we saw, that wasn't his reaction. He felt a kind of "sympathy" for Meegat and helped her. I won't break down and analyze every line of dialogue from Avon to Meegat because (for me) it all blends to the same conclusion. I'm not saying Avon suddenly became a nice guy after this ep. Lord knows that didn't happen. But it did happen in this ep (towards Meegat, anyway) and I saw nothing sexist about it. But I try not to look at B7 from a 20th century (or 21st century) western civilization point of view. From my interpretation of the 52 eps, I have created my view of the B7 universe and I watch the show from that perspective. << Fiona wrote: << We got disagreed with and debated, true, but sometimes the disagreeing got more than a little heated. >> In response to this, I'm going to repost a comment I made earlier. It should be pointed out that the Deliverance thread was a lively, interesting, and congenial debate (in fact, one of the best we've had in some time). It wasn't til posts became insulting (beginning with the "Wolf at your door" message) that there began to be a certain amount of resentment at the insistence that if we couldn't see sexism in "Deliverance" we must be stupid or uninformed. Also, seeing a list member write that another list member's posts make them sick is extremely disheartening. Courtney Hoping I didn't offend anyone It is not my intention

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Re: [B7L] Books and Movies
by Sally Manton 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Marian wrote: <It looks vaguely like a microfilm reader, rather uncomfortable to hold and not the sort of thing you can read in bed, but I assume it was meant as the bookform of the future.> Called a book-reader, as you said: possibly a contraption that reads books at a distance? The 'books' are electronic (or tarrial-cell) records held in libraries, and the book-reader can access them in a similar if simpler way to Orac reading other computers? What that would mean is you'd only need one book-reader to choose any 'book' in the nearest planet's libraries, and read it from a distance. I agree, it wouldn't be much good for reading in bed or the bath ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Double Standards
by Caveatemptor1＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

<<Carol McCoy wrote: << I'm sorry that it's taken me so long to say something. I'm especially sorry because I very much enjoy Penny and she's not posted a single thing to the lyst since then. Maybe because she was hurt by the words. Not everyone complains in public when they've been hurt. Or maybe because she was hurt that no spoke up in her defense. I hope she's still here to read this. >> I very much hope this is not the reason we haven't heard from Penny lately. It would be a shame if hurt feelings were the cause of anyone leaving the list. Courtney

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Re: Double Standards
by seven＠gaudaprime.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Carol wrote I've been debating mentioning this for days. And as my conscience has been prickling all the while, I think I'm meant to say something. David You were quite right to wait, not so much because the Redemption gathering is taking place but for another reason. Carol Some of you may have read my post several days ago where I said we on the lyst are guilty of having double standards. I believe that very much to be true, and I believe I'm as guilty of it as anyone. It's natural to be more disturbed when a "stranger" is attacking a "friend." And it's natural to be more disturbed when you disagree with the point the attacker is making. I think both those reasons (and probably others as well) are why some tactless posts slip through and some are jumped on. David On double standards I have little to say. It is natural to be disturbed and concerned. What isn't natural is waiting for the inner disturbance to pass. The internet is unforgiving in that what is emailed can not be unmailed. So it is always a good idea to wait before hitting that 'send' button. Carol (snipped outcry over words remembered even today) A post was recently sent to the list that to my mind was far more disheartening than ... , but not a single list member has spoken up. So here I am, championing yet another apparent underdog. (snipped excerpt from 43706 and two feelings) There are far more tactful ways of making a point. David I for one went through similar unpleasant feelings but was not moved to speak up. The bulk of February's posts has been in the grip of this strange thing. Carol I'm sorry that it's taken me so long to say something. I'm especially sorry because I very much enjoy Penny and she's not posted a single thing to the lyst since then. Maybe because she was hurt by the words. Not everyone complains in public when they've been hurt. Or maybe because she was hurt that no spoke up in her defense. I hope she's still here to read this. David Someone might be able to coax Penny back. I enjoy Penny's posts and web offerings too (but don't tell the Dread One that) and after she has come back to the Lyst, maybe she will make a statement about the self-exile. DC

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Re: [B7L] Re:Deliverance/H/C
by Ellynne G. 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Been giving this some serious thought. I must admit, I think I like h/c. Whether this is because of some kind of American thing, some kind of feminine lit thing, or a Mary Sue thing, I can't say. It's just that I like various aspects of stories where one character is finally convinced to let down at least some of the infamous, emotional guard. As such, I see the stories as being about the characters either admitting feelings (sorry about the f word), especially trust and concern, they may have for another character or characters. That is, a hurt character may be forced by circumstances to trust and rely on another character in a way that normally wouldn't happen - and that this trust is seen as justified and remains (to some extent) a new part of the relationship, an emotional safe zone that didn't exist before. To me, a story where one of the characters uses this 'safe zone' to hurt the other, even in a limited way, would undercut what had made it a safe zone, returning the relationship to the usual, 'This is my side of the line, this is your side of the line. Don't mix them up,' dynamics we have all come to know and love. Except with a bigger no man's land between the lines. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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B7 opinions
by Ellynne G. 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

Correct views of B7: I think I speak for all of us when I say that each of us knows, deep down, our own view of B7 is the correct one and pity the poor souls who have not yet reached this state of elightenment. Personal insults: It seems moderately ironic that I recently commented that I found the B7 list a lot easier to chat on because people were rather good humored with their opinions. It is possible to believe Blake is evil, say so, and not feel one is in danger of being linched. It is even possible to believe Avon is . . . well, even some of those most afflicted with Avon lust might not argue the evil point in certain contexts. Let's say that it is possible to state you think Avon leaves a lot to be desired and, while there might be internet version of shocked horror, this would also not lead to a public and gory demise. Personally, I still see the list this way. I notice that, despite the frequent calls for attack penguins, a large number of differing views seem to coexist here. JMHO Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Order of Precedence
by Caveatemptor1＠aol.com 25 Feb '01

25 Feb '01

<<Carol McCoy wrote: << I'm not just a parenting-related "Godmother," Fiona, I'm the Godmother of the dreaded Tarrant Nostra. We make fen offers they can't refuse. ;) >> I can testify to that. Happy Tarrant loather that I was...the "gentle persuasion" <g> of the Tarrant Nostra encouraged me to "give him a chance"; and I discovered that I really like him. Who'd a thunk it? Courtney

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Blakes7 February 2001